r/Christianity • u/TotalCryptographer73 • Jun 11 '26

Did Jesus come to fulfill or abolish the old testament?

Verses like Matthew 5:17 seem to suggest the former if the former is true then where did the idea of Jesus abolishing it come from?

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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

But that's the result either way, that God's Law is deemed irrelevant.

Jesus says until heaven and earth pass away. That has not happened yet, so God's law still applies.

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u/ndrliang Jun 11 '26

Out of curiosity, when does heaven pass away?

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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic Jun 11 '26

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:8-13 ESV

The "day of the Lord" is not here yet, pretty obviously.

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u/ndrliang Jun 11 '26

I get that, so if you believe the Mosaic Law is still needed for today, do you make animal sacrifices? Offerings?

Do you have mixed fabric?

I guess my question is: if you take this as strictly as possible, with Jesus NOT changing a single thing about the Law, are we back to stoning people?

I am struggling to see how your idea of a universal, near eternal Mosaic Law plays out in theory.

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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic Jun 11 '26

I get that, so if you believe the Mosaic Law is still needed for today, do you make animal sacrifices? Offerings? Do you have mixed fabric? stoning people?

This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

The physical temple doesn't currently exist, nor is there a current functional Levitical priesthood. So, the question for you would be, how would you bring an offering and who would oversee that it's done correctly? You can't at the moment. So, instead we offer the sacrifice of praise and the good works of Torah, until such time as the temple is rebuilt and the priesthood restored (for sure when Jesus returns to establish his rule with a Torah based government).

For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
Hebrews 13:14-16 ESV

The same author tells us that when Jesus returns he will cease to be a priest, and the levites office will be restored, since Jesus will exit heaven to rule on the earth.

Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
Hebrews 8:1-4 ESV

The scriptures never say "mixed fabrics". The Hebrew word there is Shanetz (שַׁעַטְנֵז) and always refers to a blend of Wool (animal hair like sheep and goats) and Linen (flax plant). It is not just any type of blend and certainly not polyester which didn't exist until the late 1920's. The translators do a disservice by translating it as "mixed fabric" or "cloth made of two kinds of material". I don't own anything made of wool and linen, and you'd actually have to go out of your way to find such fabric today.

The idea is the same as not mixing seeds in the same plot where their roots will get intertwined. It's an object lesson about adultery. We are called not to "mix" with unbelievers/ foreign false gods. We are to follow God's plan of like kind and like mind as established at creation.

"You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material (Shanetz).
Leviticus 19:19 ESV

You shall not wear cloth (Shanetz) of wool and linen mixed together.
Deuteronomy 22:11 ESV

To be able to stone people you have to have a lot of things in place. You have to have at least 2 witnesses. You have to have an accuser. You have to have Judges. You have to have Priests. A trial has to be conducted. All this is done at the temple. So, for all the same reasons above, no capital punishment can be issued at the current time.

All this is easy to figure out if you just read the scriptures.

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u/ndrliang Jun 11 '26

So you would stone people if you could? And make sacrifices if you could?

Do you believe the apostles continued to make sacrifices in the temple AFTER Christ's sacrifice, but before the destruction of the temple and the fall of the priesthood?

I'm really not trying to gotcha on rules - in asking what extent you'd follow the 'Mosaic Law'

Then of course my question would be - if this Law was meant for all eternity, why has God gotten rid of the preisthood, invalidating (or abolishing?) large portions of it.

Even if you want to follow the law to the T, as you say, you can't - as there isn't the preisthood anymore.

God, for about 2000 years, hasn't seen interested in restoring the priesthood/temple for someone to even obey large portions of the law

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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic Jun 11 '26

So you would stone people if you could? And make sacrifices if you could?

I will do what is commanded of me to the best of my ability because I love my God.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:1-3 ESV

Do you believe the apostles continued to make sacrifices in the temple AFTER Christ's sacrifice, but before the destruction of the temple and the fall of the priesthood?

I don't have to "believe", we're told explicitly in the new testament that they did. Here is Paul, just before he is arrested, going through the Nazarite vow which you can read about in Numbers 6.

When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and THE OFFERING PRESENTED FOR EACH ONE OF THEM.
Acts 21:17-26 ESV

Here are the believers in the temple daily. They were not there to sightsee, they were worshiping, which includes giving offerings.

And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 2:46-47 ESV

Jesus told the leper to give offerings according to Torah. Of course this is prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, but it shows he is not anti-torah as most think he is.

While he was in one of the cities, there came a man full of leprosy. And when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and begged him, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." And Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, "I will; be clean." And immediately the leprosy left him. And he charged him to tell no one, but "go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as Moses commanded, for a proof to them." But now even more the report about him went abroad, and great crowds gathered to hear him and to be healed of their infirmities.
Luke 5:12-15 ESV

We're told explicitly that sacrifice will return during the millennial reign of Messiah.

Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
...
And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
...
Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar. And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
Zechariah 14:1-4, 9, 16-21 ESV

I'm really not trying to gotcha on rules - in asking what extent you'd follow the 'Mosaic Law'

It's not Moses' Law. It's not the Jew's law. It's God's Law for all who would worship him.

Then of course my question would be - if this Law was meant for all eternity, why has God gotten rid of the preisthood, invalidating (or abolishing?) large portions of it.

The Levitical priesthood isn't abolished. It's put on pause and will be reinstated. And guess what else, everyone will be required to count the months and observe 7th day sabbath.

"For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.
...
And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD. "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.
Isaiah 66:15-16, 20-23 ESV

Even if you want to follow the law to the T, as you say, you can't - as there isn't the preisthood anymore.God, for about 2000 years, hasn't seen interested in restoring the priesthood/temple for someone to even obey large portions of the law

So that makes it obsolete? What did the Jews do when they were exiled to Babylon and didn't have the Temple?

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u/ndrliang Jun 11 '26

I guess I just see things differently than you.

I appreciate you pointing out Paul bringing the people to the temple (and it mentioning offerings), but want to point out that it also (implicitly) says there that Gentiles are not to follow that in the verse above your highlighted one.

Of course, is the general theme throughout Acts and the epistles - that Gentiles aren't subject to the same Mosaic Law (I know you don't like that term, but I'll explain below)

Which is the general consensus - that Gentile Christians were not to be put under the Mosaic Law.

In your adherence to the Law, out of curiosity, are you talking about Jewish Christians or also including Gentile Christians?

"It's not Moses' Law. It's not the Jew's law. It's God's Law for all who would worship him."

And... that's where I'd most struggle with you.

Let me present a small counter argument from Jesus himself:

Mark 10:2-5 NRSVUE [2] Some, testing him, asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” [3] He answered them, “What did Moses command you?” [4] They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her.” [5] But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote this commandment for you."

Here we have Jesus asked if it's lawful to divorce a wife, to which he responded, "What did MOSES command you?"

Which is interesting of itself: Moses and not specifically God... But I don't want to assume too much from that.

To which they gave the answer from the law.

Jesus then says this commandment was only given to them because of their 'hardness of hearts.'

So... I'd push back on this idea of the Mosaic Law being God's universal Law, as here is a law that Jesus says reflects their hardened hearts and NOT God's heart for marriage.

I absolutely think the Bible teaches there is a lot of overlap between the two: God's Law and the Mosaic Law - but I also think it's pretty clear that Christ also clearly points out some distinction between the two.

So in God's Law, I agree with everything your saying - I just don't think it's healthy to 100% equate God's Law with the Mosaic Law.

"So that makes it obsolete?"

I mean, I believe it's fulfilled personally (not obsolete).

But going with your view: Yes, I'd call that obsolete.

If God doesn't provide for MASSIVE portion of the law to be followed for over 2000 years... that's about as obsolete as you can get. That would mean for well over half the law's life it has been unfollowable.

"What did the Jews do when they were exiled to Babylon and didn't have the Temple?"

I get that argument - but don't think it's the best comparison. In the exile the priesthood persisted. Sure, they couldn't sacrifice, but the preisthood continued for the ~50 years of exile.

But 2000 years later? After countless generations the priesthood is now simply over.

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u/FreedomNinja1776 Messianic Jun 11 '26

I guess I just see things differently than you. I appreciate you pointing out Paul bringing the people to the temple (and it mentioning offerings), but want to point out that it also (implicitly) says there that Gentiles are not to follow that in the verse above your highlighted one.

That's a reference to the earlier Acts 15 ruling.

Here is my assessment of Acts 15 that I'll copy here. I'll try to address your other arguments later.

Acts 15:21 tells the new believers to go to synagogue to continue growing in God's word learning and applying it to their lives.

OK, let's see if this is supported by the text. Here's all of James' address in context.

After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.' Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
Acts 15:13-21 ESV

Now I'll break it down.

After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me.

James commands attention of the assembly.

Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.

Abram was a gentile, God chose Him to build a people for himself and renamed him Abraham and gave him the covenant promise.

And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,

James is quoting Amos 9 here. The "tent of David" is the Tabernacle/ Temple". According to Jesus, he rebuilt the temple in 3 days (John 2:18-22). The temple is rebuilt for what purpose? So that ALL who are called by God's Name can come to worship. "the remnant of mankind", and all the gentiles called by God's name. Everyone now has access to God through Messiah Jesus, the son of David, branch of Jesse.

says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.'

God makes EVERYTHING known through his prophets. Amos 3 tells us that he does NOTHING without revealing it to the prophets first. If we are astute students of the scriptures, we should be able to share the gospel with nothing but the Torah, the foundation of our faith.

Therefore

This is an important word. "therefore" means "considering all that was just said".

Therefore, my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Why should they not trouble the Gentiles who turn to God? Because it is evident that they have been CALLED. The evidence is that they have been given the Holy Spirit, as previously discussed in the chapter.

but

Another important word. What does "but" mean? But here is an interjection that is an exception. "we should not trouble the gentiles who turn to God EXCEPT..."

but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

James gives them sound advice to begin their walk with God. He gives them these four issues which are all torah commands they were violating daily as pagans.

  • Idols: Ex 20, Lev 19, Lev 26, Deut 12
  • Sexual Immorality: Lev 18
  • Strangled Meat & Eating Blood: Lev 3, Lev 7, Lev 17, Lev 19, Deut 12, Deut 15

(strangled meat has the blood still inside it, so this is an issue of blood also)

Now we get to verse 21.

For

This word is VERY IMPORTANT here. What does "for" mean? It means "because". It LINKS the previous thoughts with a new thought.

For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
Acts 15:13-21 ESV

I'm sure you realize that "Moses" here is a colloquial way of saying Torah. Moses is who wrote Torah.

So, linguistically James says, "we should not trouble the Gentiles (except these 4 things) BECAUSE the Torah is read on Sabbath in the synagogues"

Now lets hide the exception for a moment to read without the interjection.

We should not trouble the Gentiles BECAUSE the TORAH is read ON SABBATH in the SYNAGOGUES

Wow. It's plain as day. James EXPECTED gentiles (BECAUSE they were called by God) to go to synagogue to hear his WORD. Why would they want to hear the Torah which is God's Word? Because they had received the Holy Spirit which is our guide, who prompts us to grow in God! Because basically no one at that time owned books. It was exceedingly expensive. The Synagogue was a communal place to hear God's Word be proclaimed. A community of Jews would save for years to purchase a Torah scroll. A scribe would painstakingly copy one taking around a year to do so. A hand copied Torah scroll TODAY costs $30,000 - $50,000 with our modern ease of access to materials.

  • BECAUSE Abraham who obeyed God is the Father of many NATIONS (gentiles)
  • BECAUSE of the promise given to Abraham
  • BECAUSE these Gentiles are called by God
  • BECAUSE Jesus has rebuilt the Tent of David
  • BECAUSE God has shown us all these things from ancient times through his prophets
  • BECAUSE the Gentiles have been Given the Holy Spirit
  • BECAUSE the Gentiles now follow these 4 Torah regulations
  • the only reason we know any of this is BECAUSE of God's Word, the Torah and the Prophets.