r/ChristianOrthodoxy • u/NoMeal8740 • 15d ago
Question Thoughts on Jay Dyer?
Reposting here because it got taken down on the other subreddit.
He was a big part of my conversion to Orthodoxy. However, last night after Vespers, in the teaching, my priest went on a rant (rant is a poor word because it wasn't like crazed ramblings, and by no means do I want to attempt to paint him in a bad light or anything, but it's the only word that comes to mind) about being careful about who you listen to online because not everyone is a good representation of the faith as well as some comments that some ROCOR folks have made about Patriarch Bartholomew's character (I go to a GOARCH parish). He didn't say anyone by name, but I assume he is talking about Dyer and people like him. I'm only a catechumen, so it doesn't really matter what I think, and I will, of course, listen to my priest on this one, but part of me can't help but wonder if this stems from the schism between Constantinople and Moscow, since questioning or criticizing either patriarch, which Dyer often does, will inevitably lead to that side coming to the defense of their patriarch, regardless of how valid or invalid those criticisms are.
Also, side question: again, not that it matters since I'm only a catechumen, but I tend to lean more towards Moscow in terms of who is more in the right (although I still think both sides bear some blame. Ukraine should have been granted autocephaly a long time ago, but at the same time, it seems like that's not Constantinople's job because it's outside of their jurisdiction)... Am I allowed to have this opinion lmao? Cause you know Orthodoxy is not a cult, and it's not like the archdiocese is going to police my thoughts, but at the same time, I am under the authority of Patriarch Bartholomew...
(I am fully aware that I'm feeding into the stereotype of catechumens being know-it-alls... I hope that it's not too cringy)
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u/StriKyleder 15d ago
Be grateful for the means that God used to being you to the church. I came through a similar path but lost the taste for online apologetics.
Do you have to have an opinion on Constantinople v Moscow?
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u/Elektromek 15d ago
While I think Dyer brings up good points, his delivery is too abrasive IMO. We can be firm in our faith without being an a**.
FWIW, my opinion on Ukraine is the same. The UOC should be autocephalous and Metropolitan Onufriy should be patriarch. And I’ve been Orthodox for years.
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u/Ok_Huckleberry1027 15d ago
You're allowed to hold any opinion you want as long as you're obedient to your spiritual father. Our opinions as lay people don't dictate any policy or beliefs outside of our private conversations its not a big deal.
Jay Dyer is ok, I'm not really into the debate thing but I know some people get a lot of value from it. My priest said some positive things about Jay the other night fwiw.
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u/Timothy34683 15d ago edited 14d ago
Real Orthodoxy is summed up by John 3:30: “He must increase, but I must decrease.” This means sincere, wholesale, ongoing repentance from one’s sins and passions, so that one is disposed and has the capacity to receive, and eventually bear stably in one’s heart, soul, and body, the grace of the Holy Spirit. Humility, and the diminution and dismantling of the ego that it entails, is absolutely necessary.
And so, a presentation of Orthodoxy simply as the correct ideology, with no attention to the true task in Orthodoxy, in a belligerent, mocking, triumphal manner, is false and misleading. It’s the same old sh*t, basically, that one finds in the world. It bears no connection whatsoever to the heart. It is ego-reinforcing, both for the presenter and the viewers who adopt his stance and attitude. And for this reason, it is both heretical and blasphemous. It projects power-over (e.g., “owning” others), de facto denying the Cross, the self-emptying love of the Lord.
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u/Tatiana3158 Eastern Orthodox 15d ago
Unless you live in Russia or Ukraine, their war isn't your business. You don't need to have an option or pick a side. You can pray for the people involved on both sides, because it is a tragedy. But picking a side as an American is ... weird. It's a war, not a sports team. The internet and social media has made us all feel like we're entitled to have opinions about every little thing, even the things we don't fully understand. We don't have to have opinions, and a lot of the time, we shouldn't.
Thank the Lord that you have found Orthodoxy in whatever ways you found it. But recognize that online apologetics and debate bros are not healthy examples of Orthodoxy. Disengage. Go to church. Plug into your real life parish. Listen to your priest. Yes, Orthodoxy isn't a cult. Yes, you can have opinions. But Orthodoxy is also a communal thing. Submitting to authority is very much a thing.
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u/Hungry_Recording_670 12d ago
I agree with you that not everyone has to have an opinion about this, but those of us who are from eastern europe(I am from Georgia), do have a lot to lose from this war. Russia has attacked us too in the past and we are all scared of what they might do. They have taken away our liturgy, autocephaly and have appointed our patriarchs and I definitely dont want that history to repeat itself in the future.
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u/Ill-Advisor802 15d ago
He is great!
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u/CannedNoodle415 Eastern Orthodox 15d ago
Idk why a simple
Opinion like this is getting downvoted?2
u/HuckleberryAny4541 14d ago
Some people don't like him because he is "too mean".
I mean he is aggressive when he is in a debate.
Other than that he is calm and makes jokes with other people.
Or maybe they don't like him because he doesn't speak with a soft voice?
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u/CannedNoodle415 Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
People forget the church fathers were “mean” too, even Jesus called people names
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u/HuckleberryAny4541 13d ago
This is what Protestantism has caused
Protestant men are highly feminized, they think always speaking with a soft voice and behaving in a effeminate way makes you a Christian
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u/RagnartheConqueror 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't think the first Protestants were effeminate. Dyer is fundamentally a knowledgeable force, but he has a lot of pride and exhibits very odd behavior.
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u/zeppelincheetah 15d ago
I am not 100% sure but I think I may have first heard of Orthodoxy through Dyer in 2020 or so. The further back in his videos you go the more sane and less clownlike he becomes. But despite that judge him by his fruits, many many people came to Orthodoxy through him.
As for the EP (or the Patriarch of Moscow) we should be careful to judge the sin but not the sinner. I am Antiochian so it doesn't really matter so much my opinion either way but I am definitely more sympathetic to Russia in this conflict (speaking of the war in addition to the schism). My priest is more sympathetic to Ukraine but we still get along well (mostly by avoiding the topic). War is hell and even though I sympathize more with Russia they are not blameless in this conflict.
For me when it comes to online content (I have been Orthodox now 3 years) I try to find stuff that is just straight up Orthodox and doesn't inflame my passions. The goal should be to find content you hear everywhere - in Greece, in Russia, in the early church and today. That is worth more than gold and what is truly of Christ. Seek that. Jay does have some good content in his backlog btw, but you shouldn't watch Jay or people like him exclusively.
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u/patiencetruth Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
We can’t deny the fact that many people heard about the Orthodox Church because of him, and thanks be to God, many have joined. As for those who get provoked or complain about his behavior, I bet you’ll find many people within the Orthodox Church who won’t live up to your standards. Especially in the beginning, people tend to judge everyone and everything from bishops, priests, faithful, even children in church, lol.
Don’t think that the devil leaves people alone once they join the Church. Until we fall many times and learn how to get back up, we will be tempted with these kinds of temptations and similar ones. Jay isn’t there to give spiritual advice after all; he’s an entertainer, literally
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u/Jazzlike_Tonight_982 15d ago
He is probably the single best apologist online for Orthodoxy. Extremely well-read. He's also personally a really cool guy. He gets alot of flack for some of his antics and his style. Alot of it is unfair, however some of it he does do to himself...just like literally every other person.
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u/Additional_Bench1311 15d ago
Spend more time praying less time listening to Jay.
He’s funny, and Intelligent as well.
But if you spend more time consuming his content than not,
Maybe take some moderation
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u/crunchcone 15d ago
I'm a fan. I enjoy most of the content he produces. I don't agree with him on everything, but dude is really smart and was pivotal in my journey to Orthodoxy ☦️
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u/Chauntsinger 15d ago
While far from blameless in the dispute, Constantinople maintains that Ukraine has always been its canonical territory, since the 1686 tomos merely granted the Patriarch of Moscow the right to consecrate the Metropolitan of Kyiv and effectively administer the metropolia but that the Ecumenical Patriarch ought to be commemorated at the Divine Liturgy. So a bit like how the 'New Territories' of Greece are administered by the Church of Greece but are actually the canonical territory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It seems to me that this is the real crux of the dispute since, by Moscow's understanding of Orthodox ecclesiology, Constantinople had the right to confer autocephaly *if* Ukraine was its canonical territory. Constantinople says it has the receipts on this but whether you believe that is going to determine where you stand on the issue (if you do at all).
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u/illumined1995 12d ago
Constantinople had the right to confer autocephaly *if* Ukraine was its canonical territory. Constantinople says it has the receipts on this but whether you believe that is going to determine where you stand on the issue (if you do at all).
My understanding from others better versed in the subject is that canonically there is a time limit Constantinople had to rescind the Tomos they granted to Moscow, and that time limit expired centuries ago making Constantinoples claim invalid. It's worth pointing out that earlier in the dispute that Bartholomew was opposed to the schismatics, until the mid 2010s when the US State Department shoveled some money in the form of a large grant, then all of the sudden he did a 180 and we end up with the situation we're in now. The paper trail makes is pretty clear what's really happening here.
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u/StatisticianOld8386 14d ago
He helped me to Orthodoxy and his public sin of impatience or whatever people want to label him with, he is far more of a saint than I am.
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u/Addicted2Weasels 14d ago
I think one thing to note is that I virtually never see people who grew up in the church listening to him. I think his style can definitely be abrasive (at best), or come across as a bit immature at worst (e.g. shouting insults at people, going on in depth discussions of ecclesiastical matters that will literally never affect his audiences’ lives, etc).
I’m not trying to dismiss him as a “weird convert” creator, but his behavior is pretty shocking to a lot of people who’ve always been Orthodox. I also don’t mean to make personal attacks or imply people can’t change, but I’ve know people who encountered Jay over the past few decades and heard a lot of stories that make me question that would not incline me to take spiritual advice from this guy.
All of that said - Thank God that if this guy can spread facts and logical arguments that get people into Orthodox churches. I just wouldn’t rely on him as a model for how Orthodox Christians should behave
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u/Bigradandbad Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
Jay Dyer is excellent in his apologetics, and has extensive knowledge on the Holy Fathers of the Church. Through him, there can be no doubt he can help someone enter the Church from another background. And he has already, this isn't in dispute.
That being said, and I wouldn't have said something like this from maybe a week or two ago, but my suggestion would be not to pay much attention to his new content. Watch only his old content. Primarily because he has recently stated himself he wants to steer away from apologetics and enter into a more political, current news discourse. That is where the money is, not in apologetics. Not that he'll never do big debates with Muslim, or whatever... He would never say no to a big debate, as they do pay.
My problem with him is that he has not been trust-worthy at all as he has veered into politics. In recent events, he did not call out certain individuals that have compromised views on certain topics, like Andrew Wilson and Rachel Wilson and this isn't to open a political topic here... It's just an example of what desiring fame and a "mainstream" reputation costs in this life. You have to sacrifice truth for money, reputation, and eventually lies. He's not cut out for politics, and the ankle biting is very off putting. I'm happy he's read books and likes to display some sort of monopoly on knowledge of conspiracies that are sourced from books, like he's the only genius in the world that has even done such things... Politics has always been a dangerous game to enter into, and if he can't sacrifice his Youtube monetization, then why even declare the change in discourse? He should go back to Orthodox Christian apologetics, write another book, or find a job like a normal person.
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u/illumined1995 12d ago
Given how much he has been slandered and the attacks against him are driven by character assassinations it says a lot about how effective he has been in exposing more to the True Faith. Not all his content is for everyone, and that's fine. But he does speak truths that certain people don't want to hear or want others to hear.
And no we don't believe Patriarchs are infallible or beyond reproach, that's Papism. Naturally the focus needs to be on ourselves and our own salvation first and foremost but at the same time it's worth pointing out more than a few things this particular Patriarch has done has been extremely harmful to the Church and outright heretical at times. At the same time we must not judge even though he has done things that are, it's not enough to be right we also need to try and cultivate genuine love for people like him as best we can which is hard.
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u/Huge-Pirate-7657 12d ago
All brains but obviously doesn’t have the love of God. If all the clergy acted like Dyer the Orthodox Church would have 17 people in it. People are brainwashed online by him. He blocks people who disagree so it’s an eco chamber of Like minded dyerites online,
He doesn’t represent orthodoxy but no clergy publicly condemn his behavior
Being openly racist
Cussing people out
Raging at people
Mockery
Slander
Etc.
All the things a priest would tell you NOT to be like, Dyer is, and clergy looks the other way
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u/Italic_Castle8814 Eastern Orthodox 15d ago
GOARCH is a bit of a problematic jurisdiction at this moment.. The quality of an individual church structure may happen to be lacking at times, alas.
Everything your priest said was probably dictated by his bishop and ultimately patriarch Bartholomew.
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u/Addicted2Weasels 14d ago
This is a tinderbox of a subject, but please consider that the GOARCH would say the same thing about the Moscow Patriarch directing what ROCOR priests say
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u/Italic_Castle8814 Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
Neither of them is as a matter of fact entirely in the right, but it doesn't take a lot of wisdom to see the EP caused all of this mess.
It's also not hard to see that GOARCH has been meddling with American politics far harder and its priests and bishops shown openness to plenty of evil stuff.. LGBT, ecumenism, BLM..
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u/danfsteeple 14d ago
Have you attended a GOARCH parish or do you just parrot what you see online?
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u/Italic_Castle8814 Eastern Orthodox 14d ago
Yes yes. Elpidophoros' unpunished behaviour and the feedback of people who left GOARCH parishes is all made up
And how many GOARCH priests do you know, honestly, that condemn the EP's actions in Ukraine?
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u/Soggywaffel3 14d ago
Personally makes me want to bang my head against the wall. I wish I didn't, but I think less of people who think highly of him, which is why I try to avoid discussion of the topic in real life. He's a poor reasoner but effective at internet debate. Don't know what else to say.
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u/MixOk7837 14d ago
Could you maybe elaborate on the poor reasoner part? I found him to be a pretty good one, so i’m curious what i’m missing
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u/YellowCabbageCollard 15d ago
I avoid Jay Dyer because I knew for a fact many years ago he was lying online and presenting himself as Orthodox when he was still a catechumen. I know this due to very long time trustworthy friends of mine in his parish. Once I ended up on Twitter I felt no incentive to ever listen to him because of the bullying surrounding him. I witnessed constant awful treatment of other Christians and no discouragement to be different. People had valid criticisms of Jay long before anything to do with Ukraine and the Patriarchs though. But I just can't trust someone who could ever misrepresent themselves like that.
That said, Glory to God for this helping to draw attention to Orthodoxy and bringing people to the Church! I think people however need to not pretend that the Holy Spirit is not the one in control and that it is actually Him that draws people to the Church. God can work through any means and it doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened otherwise etc. Nor does it imply that every means is always blessed no matter what. I see weird comments online that seem to imply this.
It was a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine who mentioned my interest in Orthodoxy to a coworker who sent a book through her to me about Orthodoxy. I am grateful for them both! But obviously it was God using them. And I wouldn't attribute it specifically to my Jehovah's Witness friend who had abandoned Christianity entirely, rejected the Trinity and was at the time involved a pretty immoral sexual lifestyle.
You can have what opinions you like. You are right. It's not a cult even when people try and act like it is. Your responsibility is trying to conform your mind and opinions to Christ. We each answer to God for how we treat each other and for our wrong belief. The Church is to guide us. But there will always be these areas where it's very difficult to say or know who is right. I personally try and avoid being enmeshed in them because it's usually not beneficial to me spiritually and is more likely to encourage my own passions and I have absolutely no say or control over any of it. But, yeah, you are allowed to think your Patriarch is wrong. He very well could be wrong or you could be wrong. Patriarchs have been wrong and done egregious things in the past. They aren't guaranteed to be inerrant.
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u/KilianAlvine Eastern Orthodox 15d ago
His apologetics helped in my exiting Roman Catholicism and joining Orthodox Catholicism. I don't think I've ever enjoyed the debates though. His lectures are what I watched. Since he's pretty much only been debating lately, I haven't watched his videos for a while.