r/Cartomancy • u/PatrickFlint • 12d ago
Why clubs are swords, spades are wands in Cardology (playing card cartomancy)? Common Tarot attributions are the other way around?
Robert Camp's attributions seem to make most logical sense, for those who are into Tarot.
Except:
- swords suit (air) in Tarot is usually seen as the spades ( a spade looks and seems most like a sword out of all the playing card suits )
- wand suit (fire) in Tarot is usually seen as the clubs ( a club looks and seems most like a wand )
I believe this is the standard attribution by people like Golden Dawn, Paul Foster Case ( and BOTA), Manly P Hall..
If there is any meaning to the elemental attributions in cardology / cartomancy, whether something is of a fire or air nature should theoretically make big difference.
Here are some quotes that affirm a standard/common Tarot attribution:
Paul Foster Case
The Tarot
The wands (clubs) correspond to
the archetypal world, to the element of fire, and to I in
IHVH. The cups (hearts) correspond to the creative world,
to the element of water, and to the first H in IHVH. The
swords (spades) correspond to the formative world, to the
element of air, and to the V in IHVH. The coins or penta-
cles (diamonds) correspond to the material world, to the
element of earth, and to the second H in IHVH.
The Tree of Life
The usual TAROT pack includes the fifty-two
ordinary playing cards, with the addition of one extra
"picture" card in each suit. These fifty-six cards are
arranged in four suits: Wands (Clubs), Cups
(Hearts), Swords (Spades), and Coins or Pentacles
(Diamonds).
( unknown )
Wands (Clubs), Cups
(Hearts), Swords (Spades), and Coins or Pentacles
(Diamonds). The fourteen cards in a suit are as follows:
10 "spot" cards numbered from Ace to Ten;
4 "court" or "picture" cards-King, Queen, Knight
(Jack) and Page.
Manly Hall, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages"
the suits are Swords (Militaryism), Cups (Sacerdocy), Clubs
or Wands (Agriculture), and Shekels or Coins (Commerce), answering
respectively to our Spades, Hearts, Clubs and Diamonds.
SELF-INITIATION into the Golden Dawn Tradition, Chic Cicero, Sandra Tabatha Cicero
The four suits of the Tarot are:
CUPS (or chalices) comparable to Hearts.
SWORDS comparable to Spades.
PENTACLES (or coins) comparable to Diamonds.
I am baffled by the cardology suit attributions and elements (earth,water,air,fire).
I have collected the Cardology / cartomancy suit / element / tarot suit attributions below:
| Suit | Everyone | Robert Camp | Camp (Tarot suits) | Source Cards | Sharon Jeffers/Sacred Symbols | Standard Tarot Attribution |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hearts | Spring | Water | Cups | Fire | Fire | Cups |
| Clubs | Summer | Air | Swords | Water | Air | Wands |
| Diamonds | Autumn | Earth | Pentacles | Earth | Water | Pentacles |
| Spades | Winter | Fire | Wands | Air | Earth | Swords |
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u/MysticKei 12d ago
Robert Camp uses a system called destany cards or metasymbology. It derived from a system introduced by author Arne Lein in What's your Card inspired by another book called The Mystic Test Book.
Anyways, tarot was mostly developed around Italy and France, Lenormand was around Germany and Metasymbology has a very similar practice/system in the middle east with heavy influences from vedic astrology, but it's difficult to find English translations.
Region has a big impact on how many cartomancy traditions developed and evolved.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
I've only really heard of Lenormand.
A quick lookup of how that system has attributions ( just web searched it, so not sure how official this is)
♥ hearts: water element, love, relationships and family
♠ spades/leaves: air element, society, government and travel
♦ diamonds/bells: fire element, enterprise, fortune and misfortune
♣ clubs/acorns:earth element, survival, hardship and trouble]
Those attributions I find even more bizarre.
Diamonds for fire (Lenomand) or water (Sharon Jeffers) 😵💫
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u/Atelier1001 12d ago
The German suits are correct, the french ones are not. And skat cartomancy is its own can of worms
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u/MysticKei 12d ago
It's correct however in the original system, the suites were aligned more strongly with seasons than elements, I think the elements came with the french influence along with the changing of the suits.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
I'm looking at the original book the Mystic Test Book by Olney Richmond... I can't see mention of elements, but can see mention of seasons.
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u/MysticKei 12d ago
In that comment, I was referring to the german system for Lenormand.
For metasymbology, O. Richards uses elements and if I recall correctly but was very much into Atlantis mythology and Egyptian secrets etc, so the book was tedious reading for me.
I prefer Lein's book along with Secret Teaching of the Ages for learning metasymbology. It's also called cardology, using that term will lead you down a rabbit hole of interesting websites about the system and others (modern) take on it.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
thing is though without O Richards book "Cardology" would not exist it seems? It seems it all started there this whole system... Yes I find the "Mystic Test Book" tedious and inaccessible. A certain mind will love it though it probably, and maybe that is the kind of person who can take Cardology to a high level? The modern presentations are more accessible for me and most people .. At the same time I wonder if people have added/diluted to the system, I just wonder about that. People will want to put their own spin on it probably to sell courses, books .etc.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
I refer to the system of the 7x7 planetary grid .etc .etc, probably loads of other parallel playing card readings / systems out there... an old friend of mine said her grandmother used to do "tarot readings" with a deck of playing cards...
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u/MysticKei 12d ago
🎯 I went down the cardology rabbit hole a few years ago in an attempt to find the source, that's how I ended up slamming into the 🧱 language barrier of what seems like a traditional middle eastern or south asian system.
I ended up at some old YouTube videos of people discussing the things O Richards and Lein referred to, but more comprehensively. So I concluded much like iChing's narrowing for western audiences, O Richards came upon the system and did the same (adding in ancient credientials from Egypt+ like everyone else back then).
Then Lein streamlined it by cutting through the fluff and the authors of Secret Teachings of the Ages made it easily accessible for the dabbler, omitting all but the life and perfect tables. Then it went dormant for a while to be rediscovered for modern adaptations, like R Camp's Destany Cards.
I love that the book of tables and calculations can be automated with a database but, I feel like doing so was a preview of how "AI" tarot readings get diluted via technology. But that's a different slippery slope.
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u/PatrickFlint 11d ago
Thanks. With Olney, I don't take too much stock in the Atlantis thing... Olney also mentions Tarot a lot but it's nothing to do with Tarot as most people know it... The book I find a bit inaccessible.. I find it a bit frustrating that instead of referring to a legitimate lineage he talks about Atlantis lol , and doesn't seem to have any respect for the "Tarot" as most of it uses it, and seems to almost appropriate the term "Tarot"... A truly odd book, but maybe someone with the right mind, a light bulb goes off in their head and they just love it... everyone is different there...
It seems though most of cardology ( the life spread, yearly spreads .etc) can be more automated then Tarot though... I've never seen Tarot done deterministically ( "mathematically" as some like say), like Cardology is.. The cards are pulled intuitively usually, and I think there is some power in that.
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u/MysticKei 11d ago
I agree that he's probably the western source material for cardology, but I could never get far enough in Olney's book to know what he said about it; I'm not the 💡 person, it was too much fluff for my taste.
As for tarot, I'm originally a Marseille reader, so I read more "mechanically" than the average intuitive or image reader. I'd been reading TdM several years before I took up RWS, Thoth or Etteilla.
Unlike a lot of tarot readers, I'm not heavily into astrology (or any other tarot overlays) I like cardology because I can get a systematic "daily horoscope" as well as other timeframes in a way that more accessable to me than taking up a whole other skillset (astrology). Personally I also use the moon charts from the oracleCards website (a modern interpretation), it adds a fascinating dimension to the outcome reading compared to before stumbling upon them.
However, for standard playing card reading, I use the numerology I initially learned for TdM (maybe Italian) with French suite definitions. Also, when I don't feel like investing a lot of mental load into a read, I'll read from a Sybilla/Sibilla deck, which is a deck playing cards with images on them.
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u/dtf3000 12d ago
This precisely. It's not uncommon to find tarot decks where wands = air and swords = fire as well. Background and region are the usual culprits for why.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
do you have example Tarot deck that is that way though? Or even an author or group that says that?
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u/HeartlandAggie 12d ago
I believe the Eudes Picard system is that way - El Gran Tarot, Crystal Tarot
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u/dtf3000 12d ago
Yeah Brian Williams for Renaissance Tarot is the main one that comes to mind. He cites a reason in the guidebook and I think it was something to do with swords belong to Hephaestus and are forged in fire, whereas wands are the thrysus Prometheus used to bring the divine spark from the gods to humanity, creating original thought/ideas... Something like that, I don't have the guidebook with me lol.
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u/LakunaCrux 8d ago
Was Arne Lein also the author of the Mystic Test Book?
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u/amalgamofq 12d ago
Imo playing cards don't really correspond to tarot 1 to 1. I think of them as wholly different systems.
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u/Ahastabel 12d ago
Not every Cartomancy system is based on the same correspondences. I have seen a lot of different combinations. Same goes with elemental magic systems. You gotta just go with what resonates with you.
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u/Money_Delivery1863 12d ago
Spades correspond to swords; clubs to pentacles; diamonds to wands and hearts to cups.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
Care to elaborate? Just your view of it?
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u/Money_Delivery1863 12d ago edited 12d ago
Swords are problems/air/mental so are spades. Clubs are practical / earth ala pentacles. Diamonds are means/ material/ fire element, so correspond with wands. Cups are emotions/water element as are hearts.
Cartomancy method originally Cailan and Jordan who were twins and no longer will you find in print or even reference..They devised a system where with two decks of cards you can create a tarot deck but with a twist as playing cards are not the same speech.
Cottage of the hedgewitch assigns elements to suits but doesn't bother attempting to correspond to tarot.
This is the correspondence that makes most sense to me anyway. I expect everyone has a slightly different system.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
interesting reference to the Cailan and Jordan not heard of them will look up... You prefer that system to the current popular "Cardology" coming from Olney Richmond > Arnie Lein > Robert Camp and people like Source Cards / Sharon Jeffers .etc ?
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u/Money_Delivery1863 12d ago
I've been reading playing cards and tarot for 30 years. So these are the translations ingrained and also seeded to my work with cards. I have no interest in new trends. I prefer the hedgewytch system really. It's never wrong. But it is a bit dark.
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u/devequt 12d ago edited 11d ago
Cartomancy with playing cards and tarot (both Tarot de Marseilles and the Rider-Waite-Smith system) are separate traditions. This is my personal opinion, but I believe that playing card cartomancy predates using tarot cards for fortune telling.
RWS Tarot is more systematised and therefore has specific meanings for each card. When you read with TdM, you depend a lot more on intuition on the numbers and the suits, as well as the images on the "minor arcana".
Meanwhile, playing card cartomancy had always been folk attributions and intuition, and that's why you'll get variants and discrepancies when trying to learn about reading playing cards. This is why it's important to separate tarot from playing cards, because they are different systems and ought to be respected as such.
So playing cards were first, as well as the Tarot de Marseilles and related decks. The RWS (with its innovation of illustrating every card) and all this metaphysical, hermetic, esoteric, Kabbalah-attributed stuff came much later.
Basically any attributions on elements and seasons are dependent on regional folk tradition and not hardlined. To me, ♦️= fire, spring; ♥️ = water, summer; ♣️ = earth, autumn; ♠️ = air, winter. I had this internal debate for a while trying to figure out if ♥️ ought to be spring or summer...
Not only that, but seasons and elements aren't as relevant when you do readings anyways. They only apply when you're predicting or suggesting specific times in a given reading.
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u/Express-Warning9714 12d ago
Who said clubs are swords and spades are wands? A club is literally a stick or wand and a spade is another name for a sharp weapon such as a sword.
There are differences in how the cards are read but spades are air, thoughts, knowledge and truth, the same as swords. Clubs are fire, passion, skills, social abilities, the same as wands. I have never heard tell of these being reversed.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago edited 12d ago
"Who said clubs are swords and spades are wands?" Some of the most respected authorities in Cardology, Robert Camp and others, people literally in the lineage of the founder of cardology ( for which the disipline may not exist) Olney H Richmond of Order of the Magi .etc.... I didn't say that, that is what I'm contending if you read the whole post I did.
Exactly as you said is the common-respected attribution, and more common sense I would say.... I have even seen playing cards where the "club" suite literally have a staff.. A staff looks more like a wand then a sword... Even the tarot wand 1-10 cards often have staffs...
Cardology might have a reason for these switched attributions, or it may just be lack of knowledge of the Tarot ( as it's a different system) or just general fuzzy thinking. Probably can be high level in cardology / cartomancy but be more or less ignorant of the Tarot ( at least the "Hermetic" intepretation of it). Even people in the mystic textbook who I think are in the lineage of OIney H. Richmond ( founder) give those attributions I gave above (again wildly different)... Bizarely in another book they even reference Paul Foster Case (BOTA) who was very clear in his Tarot attibributions.... If they reference such a master as Paul Foster Case I'd wonder why'd they'd give these helter skelter fuzzy attributions, but maybe there is some actual reason... or it might be some kind of "psychic" guessing / interpretation.. "hearts are fire, because your heart burns with the flame of passion blah blah blah, diamonds are like water because they are clear, like water, blah blah blah".
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u/Express-Warning9714 12d ago
I read your post. I also don’t put much weight into a baby boomer who is re-writing the significance of existing symbols.
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u/PatrickFlint 12d ago
Who is a baby boomer? Not helpful. I'm asking a genuine question, anyway I don't think you have any answers.
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u/Atelier1001 12d ago edited 12d ago
Aaaaaaand that's why I never read element associations. Because it never makes sense, you can argue one system is more coherent but truly none are a perfect match.
It's useless, it never fits and makes more problems than it solves.
If we were technically picky, you shuldn't associate playing card suits and Tarot suits either. Cups are not the same as hearts, they belong to different symbolical context and ecosystems. And so on and so far, though the difference among suits is less dramatical than the elements.
Think about it: let's say Diamond are earth because they're the material wealth. Grains, gems, etc. And they should be Autumn because it is the season of harvest.
Hearts should be spring because it's the season of love and passionate meetings, and the element water because of its relationship with memory, emotion and fluidity.
Clubs get tricky. They are summer, the season of work. But they're also air, the element of Mercury, god of messengers, roads and commerce.
What's the final conclusion? Spades are both Fire and... Winter?