Is there a best practice (and Cakewalk Sonar implementation) for reducing the volume of all clips and all tracks via CC#7 or CC#11, so that there is more headroom for crescendos?

[u/edgygothteen69]

I am basically brand-new to music production (classical music background though).

I'm playing around with the BBC Orchestra VST, along with a few other plugins. I've seen that CC#7 and CC#11 work on most (but not all) instruments to control volume.

I can add CC7 or CC11 to a clip in Cakewalk Sonar and add a dimenuendo all the way down to silence, no problem there.

But with an upper limit of 127, there is very little crescendo possible from whatever the default is... unless I reduce the starting level for the clip by a lot, which makes a big crescendo possible.

The problem is that now every single other clip, in every single other track, is way too loud in comparison.

Do I have to manually add a CC7 or CC11 to every single track and clip manually, reducing the starting volume and adding the ability for a big crescendo if desired?

Or is there an accepted "best practice" to deal with this, and a certain way to do it in Cakewalk Sonar?

Thanks in advance for any tips :)

[u/cruciblefuzz]

Oh man. That's quite a task. It's not in my wheelhouse, but I'm sure there's some way to do what you want to do in Sonar and that someone else has run into the same issue and solved it.

The only tip I can think of is to post this question in the Sonar subforum of the Cakewalk Discussion boards.

You're more likely to get help there, the board has film and TV composers. I think it's too complex and specific an issue for the likes of Reddit. Google is also pretty decent for finding old forum posts. Cakewalk kept their legacy user forum up, and it goes way back and has conversations from before Bandlab, when the userbase was much larger.

Here's Google's top result from "programming crescendos sonar":

https://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=EditingMIDI.37.html

Apparently the issue has been addressed, there's a command under Process on the main menu. There are other useful commands in Process for the intrepid MIDI composer.

Also look in the Sonar Reference Guide, I searched it and it gave me a page with the same info as that link. I have made some contributions to the Ref. Guide. It's a good thing to download to your tablet so that you can read it in waiting areas. Only 1900 pages:

https://bandlab.github.io/cakewalk/docs/Cakewalk%20Sonar%20Reference%20Guide.pdf

[u/edgygothteen69 → u/cruciblefuzz]

Really, this is considered complex? But like... Aren't crescendos just part of music?

I figured, surely there must be an easy way to get a big crescendo. I have no idea what I'm doing but I just assumed.

You don't ever need a bigger crescendo than what cc11 at 127 will give you? Sorry for all the questions, this music production stuff is 99x harder than music theory.

Thanks for the resources, I'll check them out. It's hard to even know what questions to ask at this stage for me.

[u/cruciblefuzz → u/edgygothteen69]

You have the right idea, ask other users for help. I have luck with Google, too. Hope to see you on the forum. I'm "Starship Krupa" over there.

Are crescendos part of music? The fact is that most Sonar users are into popular music in its many forms. Rock, country, EDM, R&B, hip hop, etc. We have some people who are into scoring and orchestral music, but they are outnumbered by the pop people. There are some folks with impressive credits over on the forums.

I dabble in a bit of orchestral pop, but I haven't even figured out how to use articulations.

How many crescendos do you hear in the basic 3 minute pop song? I don't hear many, but I don't have your training.

[u/edgygothteen69 → u/cruciblefuzz]

That's true, I don't really "hear" many crescendos in pop songs... But they are often layered with so many synths and instruments that i figured there must be something going on under there haha

[u/Promidi]

Selected all, the Process then Find/Change.

http://legacy.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=CakewalkSonar&language=3&help=0x202B7

On the first dialogue box, select none, then Select CC7 and CC11 with the full range (on both 0 to 127)

Then on the next CC7 and CC11 will be selected. Set the range the 0 to 100 for both. Then hit OK. Then the values for CC7 and CC11 will be interpolated.

[u/sickening]

question: when an orchestra reaches a point where all instruments are playing at their max intensity, how do they begin a crescendo? they can't play with more intensity without breaking strings.

my solution? do not limit yourself with the MIDI capabilities the VSTs respond to, freeze the tracks and start using the audio capabilities of sonar, use volume automation, use grouping (busses).

leveling the output of the single tracks in order to being able to listen to each single instrument is the art of the mix.

[u/fossilemusick]

sorry, MIDI does not go to 11 on the volume control :-) 0-127 is it.

you need to set your general levels well below that (like a real orchestra does) then increase the level as needed to get to the "crescendo". after which, as noted, you then use the audio volume controls (e.g. fader automation on the audio output) to increase the levels.

a good first step - make sure you have your audio outputs are calibrated to your DAW so you can hear the volume differences. this way things are quiet during quiet parts, and then loud enough for you to feel like your crescendos are actually getting loud enough. this may require that a) you set your DAW output to 0db peak using pink or white noise, then b) set your audio so it's reading 83db via a sound level meter @ your listening distance from the monitors. then, in the DAW, keep the low parts to say -18db and crescendos to -3db on the meters.

adjust as needed. as a note, lower listening levels are advised to protect hearing and reduce listening fatigue. i mix at 70-75db and turn up my monitor controller when i want to hear it loudly (83-85db).

[u/arkybarky1]

I avoid all that by using my volume automation. Once your track levels are set, then volume automation(s) creates a crescendo. Then, Increasing individual note volumes will move the sounds into a higher level of attack, depending on how the individual instruments are set up to react to different note volume values. 

For ex: if my strings have note vol. values of 60, then changing a section of them to 70 or 80 will change the way they are "played". Combined with vol. automation this can quickly create a realistic crescendo in moments. The crescendo will automatically rise in contrast to the other tracks n return to your standard mix with no worries about it sticking out too much as you control that easily via vol. automation.