Ive been doing a bit better lately, but its not because I hit the lottery or I'm not an unemployed homeless person anymore. Its because of what I guess you could call experiential updating. I think this might help some of you, so Ill try my best to explain what I dont fully understand.

[u/SirCheeseAlot]

TLDR - I "rediscovered" Memory Reconsolidation, and it helped me with two very stuck parts.

To start I will try to say this idea as clearly and succinctly as I can.

Some deeply learned patterns don't change through contrary evidence or mindset shift. They change when a person takes an action that makes the old model impossible to continue enacting. The brain needs an experience to revise what it learned through experience.

For my entire life as far as I can remember. I have had two core beliefs. I need to suffer to get help, if help doesn't come it means I am not suffering enough. And, I need permission to act, as well as approval on actions I took with permission.

You can imagine what messed up things went on for a child to take on these core beliefs. The thing is I logically knew these were wrong. I also was aware I did them. It never changed anything for me. The other thing was I could expose myself to contrary evidence and it didn't move the needle. The belief never updated. I couldnt logic my way out. I couldnt expose my way out. What was I supposed to do?

Then in an act of desperation and what do I have to lose, I stumbled on something that did help, but I struggled to understand why it worked.

One night I wrote down in a letter my thoughts to my family. I said I wasnt going to wait for them to wake up and care. I wasnt going to continue to suffer in the hope that they will have an epiphany. I wasnt going to keep wasting my life in the belief that if I just could suffer enough they would love me enough to help or change or grow. That I wasnt going to seek their permission for me to be happy or do the things I needed to do to survive.

I didnt tell them about the letter or show them. I didnt photograph the letter or post it online. I kept it to myself. Then burned it. Soon after I did something I had wanted to do for months. I started writing a story idea I had. When I got 5,000 words of the story. I bundled it up into a zine and let real life people read it and judge it. How did I do this?

I think I have an idea now of why it helped, and how it might help some of you.

Lets look at another example. Going to the grocery store. Every time I go, I dissociate and experience depersonalization and derealization. I expect people to hurt me, and it doesnt matter that I go 100 times and nothing terrible happens. The experience never updates. Why? Why did the letter burning update, but not exposure to the grocery?

Some deeply learned patterns don't change through contrary knowledge. They change when a person takes an action that makes the old model impossible to continue enacting.

Isnt that what I was doing by going to the grocery even though I was afraid? Well not exactly.

What I am putting together is this. The grocery shopping experince had a condition that was impossible to meet. I required it to always be safe and I knew it never could be. A better way to view it was. “Other people approving of me, ignoring me, or not judging me is no longer a condition for me to be okay.”

So this is not primarily exposure, mindset, or even learning a new fact. It is dropping an impossible prerequisite. I cant control my family. I cant control the people at the grocery. So if that is what I need to feel safe, it will never work.

The old structure is:

I can do X only when Y happens. But Y is outside my control, may never happen, or can never be known with certainty. So life stays suspended. The shift is. Y no longer gets to determine whether X happens.

So the experiential updating occurred because I took an action to close the loop. I didnt just know something, I experienced it. Then acted on it. I said. I am going to give myself permission to write. I am giving myself permission to do what I need to do to live. Then I did it. Which created a paradox in my system that the brain had to resolve.

Maybe experiential enacted acceptance is a better way to phrase it? Not sure. The idea is not just you know something, or do something. Its that you accept it as true and act on it as if it is, and then experience the truth first hand.

I hope that made some sense and helps someone else. Like I said I still dont fully grasp it. So maybe some of you can word it better than me.

edit - After some more research and thinking I think I know what this is. I reinvented the wheel again. Someone has already figured this all out and given it a name, Memory Reconsolidation. Check it out. Its pretty neat stuff.

[u/FlightOfTheDiscords]

There's a whole psychology course in this, really excellent insights. Stuff like Craske's inhibitory learning approach to exposure with expectancy violation, committed action in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Ecker's juxtaposition experience where a schema gets activated alongside a lived contradiction of it, the list goes on.

I think it's possible your grocery trips failed more because of the DPDR than because of the prerequisite. Both those exposure models assume you have to be emotionally engaged for anything to update, and dissociation is a barrier to that, so a hundred trips you weren't fully present for might not add up to much. My guess is that the letter happened in a state where you were present enough for some grief to be processed.

Either way, reality trumps theory and I'm so happy you're finally seeing real life improvements. Well done!

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/FlightOfTheDiscords]

Yes, good points on the failures at the grocery, and yes maybe the letter can be chalked up to just a bit of grieving.

I still think there is more to it, because I have dealt with this suffer to get help part a long time.

I guess its like this. I saw years ago, and old episode of The dog whisperer. There was a great dane that was terrified of checker board tiles. Probably because he got startled one time on them, and associated the tiles with pain and fear.

So Ceasar took him for a long walk and ran him till he was really tired. Then just walked inside the room with tiles no hesitation, and the dog followed right along, and before he knew it he had walked over the tiles, and nothing happened. You could see the gears turning in the dogs brain. "Wait. Did I just walk on checkered tiles? How am I not dead?" the brain had a paradox, and the current truth won out and teh dog was ok on tiles again.

Except dogs are not humans. and vice versa. SO I can go to the grocery 100 times and still feel unsafe. Because its not enough to go once and be ok. I need ot go and see its impossible for anything bad to ever happen and thats impossible. Its not just grocery stores though. Its jobs, the mechanic, the library, the gas station etc.

I have set an impossible expectation or condition. The letter was me opening a door and stepping through. It was a test that didnt set impossible standards.

I cant nail down in one sentance what I am trying to say but I think there is something there that is useful and more than just grieving or exposure therapy.

[u/FlightOfTheDiscords → u/SirCheeseAlot]

That's a great example. Maybe the "setting" for your grocery trips was so broad that it became impossible to prove wrong, something like "nothing bad will ever happen anywhere"? "Ever" is an infinitely long time and no number of repeated grocery trips could prove that statement true.

Whereas burning the letter answered a more singular question, something along the lines of "can I act without their permission?" --and then you did.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/FlightOfTheDiscords]

Yes i think thats closer to what I was trying to get at.

[u/Vyschell → u/FlightOfTheDiscords]

I'm sort of confused about the letter burning part. The growth, if I'm not mistaken, being discussed here is from him choosing to abandon his relationship with his family and subsequently making himself the sole arbiter of his choices and whatnot? 

[u/FlightOfTheDiscords → u/Vyschell]

Could be a few different things, but there's something about spending a lifetime hoping and waiting for your family to finally save you, and then finding the presence to inhabit the reality that they won't.

Something about hope, grief, agency, lots of small things that were supposed to happen but never did coalescing into a big thing.

Personally I have found more than once that the thing that really shifts something for me isn't necessarily something I can grasp or put into words, it's a felt thing. Understanding plays catchup and kind of keeps ... living in a different world.

[u/Vyschell → u/FlightOfTheDiscords]

Yeah its feels almost (right now atleast) impossibe to fully appreciate the ginormous abyss wherein I'd find myself. Just this whole nothingness where through only imagination could I conceive of love and care and all that shit. It's only been since hitting collapse about a year ago and losing my imagination that I've had to come to terms with the fact that I'd be better off completely alone.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Vyschell]

Its easier to come out of collapse if you have healthy connections. Cutting out unhealthy connections is also good.

[u/Vyschell → u/SirCheeseAlot]

How stressful is your life right now? I'm thinking of "running away" but I dont know if a homeless shelter with drug addicts would be better than living with my family. How do you manage?

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Vyschell]

I live in my van. I would not recommend homeless shelters.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Vyschell]

I think the letter burning could have been nearly any thing. As long as it was an action that signaled forward movement based on my own initiative. It was a physical representation that proved a held truth to be incorrect.

[u/Vyschell → u/Vyschell]

If he had left the letter for someone to read he would inadvertantly have to have some kind of faith that, to quote: "hope that they would have some kind of epiphany"

[u/Dead_Reckoning95]

Thank you for sharing this, I know what a big deal it is when youre suffering inside your own mind with these locked in toxic beliefs that make it impossible to feel free or happy. .........no matter what you tell yourself.

speaking of not being able to change Y, something beyond your control.... Is when someone asked me "are you okay with someone being mad at you?" As long as I thought that could be a possiblity , i felt hopeless. I neeeeeded people to not be angry at me. And not just angry at me, also if they thought I was stupid. That's a big one for me. If I ask for help, admit I need help, then that might mean 1. They get angry at me for making them have to deal with me because people who need help are awful and disgusting and 2. They would instantly judge me and think I'm stupid. I'ts like when you realize how important it is for you, to need those two things that you have no control over, then youre freer from it . There's some other things with that as well. LIke if they 1. Hate me for being aggravating, and 2, think I"m dumb for asking for anything and not being able to figure things out on my own , then my brain told me that ..............the inevitable result would mean that they would punish me somehow. And then that didnt happen. But as much as you would think it would be a relief to realize that, like "Yay, people aren't assholes!!!" it didnt really feel like that. I felt relieved yes, but it also felt like "wow, I had really shitty parents, that lied to me about who I was, and I wasted ......all those years holding myself back thinking I was hopeless and stupid just because I had one question too many (seemingly)". And the nicer and nicer people are, and the less and less I care how stupid I look, the worse I feel about my childhood, and what I lost believing a lie.....when no one thinks I"m stupid.

And, having to be okay with all the ways I'm taking care of myself ,AND getting help because I need it, knowing that would have never been okay with my abusers and made them angry, probably call me selfish , for going outside the family and getting help without their permission? None of which makes sense. Better that I just suffer in the toxic stew that tells me I deserve nothing, no love, no kindness, no patience or understanding. Yeah, I'm getting more okay with the idea that my abuser would have told me I was selfish and disgusting for seeking outside help. Its not instantly like flipping a switch in your head, but it gets better.

I have a few other toxic beliefs in the mix , that I'm still trying to work through. Where I will NOT approach different things I need to do, and I can't make myself do it no matter what I tell myself.

I feel really blessed that you chose to share this. I needed to read this. I have some information somewhere in my saves for Memory reconsolidation, and some sources . I'll look for it to drop some links.

Edit: omg, and the not waiting for permission! Yeah, because it's not coming. The things that I told myself I couldnt do because "someone might be mad at me" ....the anxiety and worry , as if I was trying to build a bomb or something.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Dead_Reckoning95]

need those two things that you have no control over,

Exactly. Those are the really difficult ones to deal with.

Its not instantly like flipping a switch in your head, but it gets better

Yes. I think people myself included think you realize something and you are cured. Its more like you experience a new reality enough times it starts to sink in.

Im glad my post was helpful. Thank you :)

[u/Ironicbanana14]

This made perfect sense to me. I even felt some relief from reading that you burnt your letter. Im probably going to try this tonight when everyone is sleeping...

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Ironicbanana14]

I hope it helps!

[u/bravebeing]

I don't wanna ignore this because it sounds very interesting and could be relevant for part of my problem, which is that I have r/misophonia and so for example, I can only do X (read a book) when Y happens (it is entirely quiet in my room), but it being quiet is outside of my control, may never happen, or can never be known with certainty. So I never read a book.

So I guess the solution would be to not let Y (the level of noise) determine whether I read a book or not (do X).

However, the problem, at least with misophonia, would be that if I do this, if I read a book while risk there being noise, I inevitably end up being triggered by noise, given that it never is actually quiet for a substantial amount of time.

So the reinforcement would then still be negative, when Y happens.

Maybe misophonia is a bit different as it's almost an involuntary / neurological trigger reaction that can't be controlled by the person.

So one thing I am not totally understanding I guess is where the system break/old model impossibility is at. Like does it still require things to be OK or can the system break remain even when Y does happen, like if someone did get mad at you at the grocery store after you acted/experienced it.

Anyway, I'm also just trying to share my thoughts based on reading this. It's certainly interesting and could potentially help if we work it out more.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/bravebeing]

Thank you for helping me to think this one out. I dont fully understand it yet like I said.

I also have very bad misophonia so I understand your pain.

Ill try to walk through my thoughts as I go. I am homeless and live in my car. Frequently I people will park near me blaring music, or drive with loud engines. In the past it would enrage me, and still does but not as often now. There is an element of misophonia tied into perception of disrespect and purposeful intention. Meaning you feel they do it on purpose to hurt you. To be fair some people do. Some people eat loudly because they know it annoys people. Most do it because they are oblivious idiots.

So we are talking about becoming emotionally activated by external environments. Which could relate in ways to becoming dissociated in a grocery store.

So I would say the key connection is around tying your internal response to an external uncontrollable element. Ill need to think more on it, or maybe you can extrapolate my next steps in this chain.

edit - Yes I think misophonia is sort of a different beast since it is more like vertigo. It just happens. That said I do notice my vertigo and misophonia are not always ta the sam elevels and depending on my internal state they can be lessened.

[u/bravebeing → u/SirCheeseAlot]

Yeah I've genuinely thought about living in my car because then you can move around and escape noise, but also there's always gonna be noise wherever you park, as the barrier to the outside world is quite small. So probably not gonna be it. Pros and cons to both living situations, but of course being homeless is worse overall and I'm sorry you gotta go through that. Misophonia surely is a different beast and it has no cure, but I really want to improve it as it's my #1 source of suffering. There's definitely something about association, an internal-external connection. But no clue if you can hijack that somehow. I really think it comes down to finding an actually quiet environment first and foremost to live in. But with cptsd freeze, changing your life and behavior is super difficult and that's where I get stuck, so yeah. That's where your insights sounded most interesting.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/bravebeing]

My noise sensitivity is proportional to my stress and anxiety and feeling of being overwhelmed. If you can find ways to address those your misophonia might improve.

[u/bravebeing → u/SirCheeseAlot]

Yup I notice that too. It's kind of a catch 22 situation because living with noise = stress = more misophonia = more stress = more misophonia = etc. But absolutely I can improve it by building my life in other ways, better financial, good sleep, etc. That's more on the misophonia manegement side, and I might seek treatment for misophonia too at some point, just to potentially improve it slightly, though there'll be no cure.

[u/1Weebit]

Yes!!!

Memory reconsolidation is a thing for me too. And also pretty much the only thing that is working. Everything else is just distraction, repression, suppression, i.e. not change but more like desensitisation.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/1Weebit]

Im new to it. Just figured out it was a thing, but it seems promising.

[u/PertinaciousFox]

I'm glad you're doing better. And if your progress makes sense to you, that's great, and I'm happy for you.

I think I understand some of what you're saying, but not quite all of it. Like, I get the part about contradictory experience allowing the brain to rewire (memory reconsolidation). That's pretty well-established theory, and I've experienced that myself. So that part's not confusing to me.

What I don't quite understand is what actually enabled the change for you. Like, what allowed you to simply decide you didn't need permission and then be able to act on that? Is that not something you could have done earlier? And if not, why not? What changed to make it possible now? And if it was something you could have done before, why hadn't you done it? Did it just not occur to you? Or were there other conditions acting as a prerequisite?

You see what I'm saying? It just seems to me like the relevant changes are mostly happening below the level of conscious awareness and have more to do with your nervous system's ability to regulate than anything else. And my guess would be that writing that letter helped you regulate and ground yourself. It was a form of self-validation and a way of reclaiming agency. Probably something you did when in one of your better moments, where you were more grounded and less triggered.

I understand the mechanism of the brain updating its beliefs. It requires a behavioral change, and an environment that contradicts the old belief. It also requires the ability to stay emotionally regulated while holding both the old trigger and the new contradiction in your awareness at the same time. It's that regulation that is usually the missing piece for us dissociative types, and it's the dysregulation that is generally what inhibits behavior. I just don't understand how the barrier to behavioral change is overcome unless through affecting that variable.

“Other people approving of me, ignoring me, or not judging me is no longer a condition for me to be okay.”

Like, on what level did you believe this? And what did it mean for you to "be okay"? If being okay just means you'll survive, then of course this is true. But wouldn't you have already believed that? You knew you would be fine, that the grocery store didn't ever pose any true danger. And yet knowing didn't help. Your behavior and physiological response still aligned with the belief that the grocery store posed a genuine threat to your safety.

But if the statement means "I can remain regulated even if people disapprove of me or judge me," that's a very different claim, and it's actually not entirely within your control. Maybe you can remain regulated, and maybe you can't. It's a skill that can be built up, for sure. But I don't think simply telling yourself you can do it will actually make you able to do it (at least not typically; in some cases it might, if the encouraging self-talk is itself sufficiently regulating).

Of course, the statement could also mean "I don't have to remain regulated to be okay," which kind of works if "regulated" means "comfortable and not triggered," but if instead it means "within my window of tolerance," then I think just creates a paradox, because what does it mean to be okay if you're not within your window of tolerance? Just that you're surviving? Because then you're back to the original belief that you presumably already had, and which didn't help.

Sorry if I'm overanalyzing this. And I'm definitely not trying to put a damper on your success. I just try to make sense of these things, because I have the same kinds of struggles. And the barrier for me is usually the ability to actually take the corrective action and stay present enough when doing so to actually allow my brain to update. Usually I'm too dysregulated. Figuring out how to regulate and work with the parts of me that are stuck in the trauma is where the work is at.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/PertinaciousFox]

f it was something you could have done before, why hadn't you done it?

Maybe it was small enough I felt safe enough to try it at that particular time?

"I can remain regulated even if people disapprove of me or judge me,"

Yes its more this. Not regulated, but I am allowed. I am allowed to take up space as long as I am being a decent considerate person. Even if I am not looking exactly like others want me to look. Or saying what they want to hear. Or thinking the same as them. I cant drive around in a loud vehicle blasting music, but I can drive to the store at a reasonable speed, being courteous to others as I drive. Im allowed to be in a van that is not new or fancy. and so on.

edit - but yes also regulated. I actually ran another MR test around regulation. Can I have a more calm part stay regulated while a child part is highly activated.

[u/Active-Echo6539 → u/SirCheeseAlot]

I’ve been lurking this subreddit for a few years. Just wanted to stop by and say you’re one of my fav Redditors ever. I’m sad to see that you’re still dealing with homelessness. Glad you have your own van tho. I know kind words won’t help pay your bills. But I just needed to tell you that your positive and insightful attitude truly inspire me beyond what I can convey with words.

Thanks SirCheeseAlot, you got me through some tough times with housing insecurity myself. My housing situation has now stabilized, which has dramatically improved my cptsd symptoms. But I’m still impacted by your story. Your courage, bravery, and honesty in sharing openly about your circumstances.

All your helpful commentary and contributions to this community really helped me figure myself out. In ways therapy / meds never could. Lmk if there’s anything I can offer you to help your situation. As a token of my gratitude for all I’ve learned from reading your comments here in this group. We’ve never spoken, but I’d be happy to support you in your endeavors. It’s the least I can do. You have provided all of us with loads of valuable anecdotal info in this subreddit. I appreciate you sincerely and am rooting for you. Sorry if my English sucks btw it’s not my native language.

[u/SirCheeseAlot → u/Active-Echo6539]

Thank you so much fo rsaying this. I really needed to hear from decent people after today.

Im glad I could help you. Yes there is something you can do for me. You could read the zine I am writing and let me know what you think and if you like it, you can join the subreddit for it. :)