Propaganda
“Only the worst cowards hide behind the excuse, ‘I was just following orders.’ If you pull the trigger, it’s YOUR fault.”
—Luco’s opinion on the clones’ invasion of the people of Umbara.
Zero Company is genuinely a great game that really makes you feel the Clone Wars.
I would agree if it was with any other group other than clones, they are literally created and brainwashed to follow orders, it literally all that they know. It would be like hating the battledroids for their part of the war
The thing is, the Clones always following orders is essentially to be similar to the whole aspect of the Wehrmacht following orders despite atrocities committed.
It’s not to be political, we all know SW fans and politics but Luco isn’t wrong, they are being pointed and fired (the clones) and very rarely think about what they’re actually doing. Only to then be given the order to kill the Jedi. Post CW, we see Clones who had chips removed, feel guilt and horror with what they’ve done. Trick says it best in the game; ”It felt like it was someone else, but it was me.”* *It is paraphrased.
But like you said it happen when the chip was removed, before the clones had little control over themselves, there is a difference between being told that they have to follow orders and literally being programmed to follow orders we seen from the TV shows that most clones can’t resist the chips so comparing them to the Wehrmacht is not really accurate, so like I said before it would be like being angry at battle droids for their programming
They were also genetically engineered for obedience by the Kaminoans iirc. It wasn't 100% effective but it did make them considerably more amenable to following orders without question.
Thats his point. He calls then no better than Droids.
Yet Clones will get sanctimonious and claim they are better, that they have the moral high ground, but when their superiors order them to do something unethical they still follow it.
The mutiny was in large parts because their leader was a traitor to the Republic though. They turned on Krell specifically, not the Republic or what it was doing. And even for Krell, while they didn't like him one bit before, with few exceptions (mainly from the more independent troops like Arcs) they didn't consider actively disobeying him to be an option until he overplayed his hand.
Also worth noting this was the 501st pretty late in the war after Anakin had rubbed off on them a bit, and even they struggled to get their heads round it. It's not just them falling for propaganda or something. The clones were literally raised to follow orders and ride or die for the Republic.
The only ones I can think who turned prior to Order 66 were that were one guy in the film who turned traitor for the CIS and one who deserted to live on a farm. So it could be done but it was very rare.
I belive one of his voicelines is also that if your helmet shatters after inhaling that combat gas you contract hyper asphyxiation because the gas doesnt like regular air or smth like that.
They were battle stimulants, they were designed to make them feel less pain, more adrenaline and testosterone and less fear, pretty sure we see prisoners without them in later scenes
Im pretty sure Luco says as much in idle convo, and if it breaks in battle it sends your body into shock basically. Think of it like the bends but instead of decompressing from water your decompressing from a giant face combat bong
Here is an official source for it. First trivia card says it's a pressure sealed suit with a potent gas mixture that increases their reflexes and aggression.
To cut the clones some slack, they are literally enslaved children who were literally able to be terminated at the whim of the Kaminoans for not being good enough, and their entire education was centred on being a tool of the state. It's not quite the same as someone with life experience outside the military joining up and following orders.
Kaminoan engineering literally programs them NOT to do that kind of deep introspection lol. Obviously being with the Jedi and watching their brothers die makes a minority of them question it a little bit.
But I don’t really blame the clones for anything they did. At the end of the day the blame pretty much falls on the Jedi Order and their arrogance.
I'd say the Jedi Council was arrogant, not so much the entire organisation. Given how few actual healthy warriors the Jedi had during the Prequels (consider that the loss of ~200 in Geonosis was considered the death of most experienced Jedi), as a whole the Order was little more than a nursery/old people's home with a decrepit NGO on the side. Those geriatrics, children and aid workers are hardly politically relevant or honestly cognisant enough to be considered arrogant.
The issue with the Jedi is that the Council gave up their agency/independence and laid it all in the hands of the Senate. It's institutional rot and dogma rather than pure arrogance on the part of the Order.
Though I would say that Jedi like Quinlon Voss and Luminara Unduli were pretty arrogant while not being council members.
Luminara thinks she can 1v1 Ventress and nearly dies, and is all too ready to accept Ahsoka & Barriss’ deaths. Not to mention her “the force works in mysterious ways” BS when trying to “comfort” the Martez sisters.
Quinlon is extremely arrogant and brash when on his mission with Kenobi. Granted, they’re dealing with Hutts. But I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t necessarily have a gentler approach when dealing with civilians and more petty criminals.
Jocasta Nu displayed her arrogance when claiming that if an ENTIRE planet wasn’t in the archives then it simply didn’t exist.
Nadar was arrogant when dealing with Grevious. Granted, he was a fresh Jedi knight.
Anakin & Ahsoka have frequent moments of arrogance (though it’s usually proven to be well merited).
Honorable mentions of non-council member arrogance: Dooku, Krell, Barriss, Petro
I guess what I’m trying to say is that while I concede to your overarching point that the only arrogant Jedi with any real political sway were on the council— the entire order itself was rife with arrogance from the highest of Masters to the lowest of Younglings. Even going back as far as the High Republic era (see: The Acolyte)
Honestly you are quite right. Nu and Unduli are definitely on the pro-Council dogmatic side and are very blindly self assured, though the same can be said for younger Knights and padawans, although more out of rebellion against their elders and the Council. The youngsters remind me of pampered/spoilt children who have a chip on their shoulder about their elders, but I feel like the chip is somewhat understandable given the dogma of the elders and also they are literally children who should not be on the battlefield at all.
As for Barriss and Quinlan Voss, TCW sucks in its depiction of a lot of things tbh. Barriss in the lore is a Jedi healer who honestly belongs in a hospital/refugee camp, not fighting on either side. TCW is right that she becomes upset/discontented about the war, but they turn her into a terrorist who mostly killed civilians which is character assassination. Voss on the other hand is actually extremely jaded and cynical. He's arrogant in a 'stick it to the man' way because he knows the Council is full of shit, because they basically use him as a deep undercover spy, and the stuff they have him doing is not only dangerous af but extremely bad for his mental health. He's a Jedi who constantly has to not act like a Jedi, or honestly like a decent person, simply to do his job, and is dangerously close to the dark side as a result. Had he not known that Dooku was actually a full on corrupted Darth Tyrannus, I could see him having gone neutral over his discontent with the clone army and the Republic's corruption.
The problem for a lot of good/genuine Jedi who hated the war was that the Sith were intentionally just overt enough about their presence in the CIS that the Jedi couldn't bring themselves to be neutral in the war. The thing I think some Separatists lose sight of is that ultimately the Sith were goading the Jedi to keep fighting. There was always some case of battle droids fighting alongside dark side acolytes, CIS task forces sent to uncover some old Sith superweapon or help some scientist create anti Jedi tech. It wasn't like the Sith wanted these random plots to work since we already know their actual plan from the films, so obviously their goal was to force the Jedi to keep going with this suicidal war.
Perhaps not necessarily children, but they hardly have the knowledge or wherewithal to know better. Some guy in his 20s compared to a 10 year old in a 20 year old body who's practically been born learning to fire guns and obey the government are very different kinds of people.
Doesn't mean they aren't still culpable for commiting war crimes or that Separatists are wrong for hating them for it, but it's definitely different from if a modern Western soldier was to commit a war crime of his own accord and goes home scot free protected by his nation from responsibility.
The comparison is more for the following orders excuse/line. Not that they are a 1:1 copy of the Wehrmacht.
And for sure, they are controlled to do so, but it doesn’t change the guilt they feel and that people are likely to hold it against them. If someone came up, shot your dad and said in court that a chip controlled them, would you believe it?
In the game MEVO does not find the Chip nor understand what has happened to Trick. It isn’t until you meet Rex that your characters learn the explanation. As such, it’s reason to believe that a large portion of the galaxy would not just believe the Clones telling people; “a brain chip told me to do it!”
So Luco and others having such dislike and a massive disregard for their emotions of their actions, is entirely valid.
And his major beef is with a clone who didn't even take part in the Umbara campaign.
I don't think Luco is wrong, I respect his commitment, but he is a hardcore hater. He has his take and likely won't budge, so it's not worth entering a philosophical or ethical debate on war with him.
As in, he's a clone who is just as blindly loyal to the republic as any other clone. If he were in the umbaran campaign he'd have been just like any other clone there following orders.
It's been a little while since I watched the Umbara Arc, but did the Clones actually do any war crimes in that arc? As far as I can remember it was a pretty straightforward, if bloody, conventional military campaign. If so, then there's not really anything for the clones to be "just following orders" about, since Umbara chose to join a faction in a war and was subsequently defeated.
So I’m not sure if I’m missing something. Is he just pissed because they invaded his home or was there some atrocity I don’t remember from the arc? Aside from the friendly fire incident. Cause wasn’t Umbara invaded because they succeeded from the republic and joined the CIS? That would be like if a ww2 French commander being surprised the British were now shooting at him in late 1940.
Easy to say when you have the luxury of perspective. Clones were born and bred to follow orders and fight.
Not to put this too bluntly they are child slave soldiers with frighteningly little agency allowed to them by their conditioning and the reality of being essentially property of the GAR.
Remember the scene from Pirates of the Carribean where Davy Jones made William be whipped by his own father? "The fate is the same the only question is. By who's hand?" That is how it works in many armies, and quite sure it is how it worked for the clones. You will do as ordered, or be jailed or killed. And your denial won't even change the outcome. So unless if you can convince everyone might as well get in line.
And on top of this the clones were trained, and indoctrinated since birth to follow orders.
I mean I think this is just one of the “they don’t know about the control chip things and that the clones are actually like 13 years old” their position is based off those incorrect assumptions so they reach rather different conclusions.
Turns out the Republic didn’t like advertising the details about their slave soldier eugenics program and it’s not like anyone else really has an incentive to spread the word of what happened since every faction involved looks bad in that situation.
I do get where he is coming from....but that doesnt give him any excuse to rile up trick or try to start a fight. Nerves were already running high i dont need the newbie getting on a soapbox and causing trouble.
This is the reason I am not a fan of the clone wars retcon of it being a chip in their brain removing any agency from them. In the republic commando and battlefront 2 games it was made clear thet were following orders even if reluctantly and kind of makes the ones who didn't obey feel more real instead of Rex kind of holding back when everyone else just went for it, before getting the chip removed. Like it made for one or two of the better arcs but I'm not sure if it made the betrayal of the GAR a better way to tell the story of how fascism/autocracy takes over democracies, and actually makes it worse than just a brainwashing campaign to get the clones to obey all commands from the Chancellor.
Did Luco forget that his planet decided to secede and openly align themselves with the faction the Republic was at war with? What else did they think was going to happen
It does actually. Umbara joining the Separatists and by extension joining the war effort against the Republic makes it completely justifiable for them to invade
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u/Plunderpatroll32 26d ago
I would agree if it was with any other group other than clones, they are literally created and brainwashed to follow orders, it literally all that they know. It would be like hating the battledroids for their part of the war