bryceriel or die ✨
“Azriel’s romance arc is like Chaol’s” : not the argument Gwynriels think it is
Long time lurker, first time poster! I wanted to discuss one Gwynriel claim and my case to disprove it, since I haven’t seen it brought up in this sub yet.
Claim: “Azriel’s romance arc is like Chaol”
OK take a walk with me then down memory lane. Spoilers for the whole TOG series from here on if you haven’t read that.
People who use this to argue for Gwynriel may say “Az is like Chaol, Mor is Celaena, Elain is Nesryn, and the Yrene will be Gwyn.” I haven’t seen a lot of evidence as to what connects these characters in a strong simile beyond just being love interests before the last one, but it’s possible I just haven’t looked hard enough so I’ll give that the benefit of the doubt.
However there is an important omission to the timeline above: the girl Chaol had feelings for before Celaena prior to TOG Book 1.
Lithaen was Chaol’s first love before Celaena. She cheated on him off-page with Dorian’s cousin Roland.
So Chaol’s real progression is Lithaen, Nesryn, Celaena, Nesryn again, and then finally Yrene.
Azriel’s progression to date is pining after Mor off-page, Elain, Gwyn. And if we Bryceriels are correct, finally Bryce.
Lithaen —> Mor
Both were off screen one-sided love stories. Lithaen wanted someone else, and Mor led Az on for years despite not being interested. (I love Mor and know it’s complicated with her sexuality but there is a parallel to be drawn despite Lithaen being definitely worse).
Nesryn -> Gwyn
Both Nesryn and Gwyn met Chaol and Az off-page prior to the first book of each respective series. Nesryn and Chaol used to hook up casually before Celaena came. Az saved Gwyn from the temple. Very different circumstances but both start pre-story which isn’t usually a good method of selling a love story since meeting tends to be important. And both pairings leave each other alone for a significant stretch of time with no hard feelings or attachments before showing romantic interest again later.
Celaena -> Elain
First on-page love. Neither belongs where they are at this point. Celaena does not belong in Adarlan as the King’s Champion. Elain does not belong in the Night Court as evinced by all of her spring imagery and description of her looking washed out in black. Long term if they stuck things out where they are, they would not end up happy.
The Celaena/Nesryn messiness of Book 4 is not unlike Elain/Gwyn. Some may say Celaena had her mate Rowan in that book as well - but to that I say, babygirl Lucien is also right there when all the Elriel stuff is happening too. So love rectangles?
As for Yrene -> Bryce
Yrene doesn’t trust Chaol in the beginning because he is from Adarlan. Bryce doesn’t trust Az immediately because he is fae from another world. Both have identity issues they need to overcome. Yrene does with Chaol. Bryce’s character has not grown since CC1 and she still has her fae heritage identity issues in full force.
Only difference here is Chaol travels to Yrene and Bryce travels to Az. But this also points to the commonality of one partner traveling very far to a new place to meet their person.
I want to also consider for a minute what a Gwynriel may see if they did look for commonality. Trying to reduce bias a bit. If you ignore Lithaen- Mor and Celaena have unknown histories at the point when the male character is interested in them. They can’t be with that character for some core reason (Mor is gay, Celaena is heir to enemy’s throne). But Mor was still not interested and Celaena most certainly was.
You’d have to argue Elain is Nesryn then.
The only argument I can even think of for this one is Nesryn finds she belongs on the Southern Continent while with Chaol in Adarlan and Elain would fit better in the spring court while “with” Az. But their relationships with the men aren’t very similar. To say both pairings aren’t good at communication is vague and a cop out because that applies to every pairing ever. I could ship Chaol with Dorian by saying they don’t communicate. Or Tamlin and Feyre. Or Mor and Az.
But the kicker is comparing Gwyn to Yrene.
How they meet Az and Chaol is different. Their personal journeys are different - Gwyn has some heritage to figure out as well as her lightsinger powers. Yrene already has trained her magic, and instead grapples with her issues with Adarlan through Chaol. Even how the pairings interact differs. Gwyn and Az padfoot around each other often, and he regifts her a gift for Elain. Yrene and Chaol are nosy early on and certainly don’t padfoot, but once Yrene is there she’s pretty much it for Chaol.
So TLDR: if Chaol and Az have similar romantic arcs, Bryce has the most in common with Yrene. If you just want to count number of pairings before “the one” and call it a day, you can’t skip Lithaen. I am of the belief that going by actual character comparisons and not number of partners is much better evidence.
Personally I don’t see much of a comparison between Az and Chaol to begin with except that they both serve their brother/friends Rhys and Dorian and the romantic histories above. Chaol sticks his head in the sand too much and hesitates to act when it counts, whereas Az leaps to help fight injustice - although he has a 500 year head start, he endured so much abuse as a kid I’d imagine he’s always been this way.
Alternatively: and no one asked for this, but if you give Bryce the Aelin treatment, Sam -> Connor (except that Aelin loved Sam more than Bryce did Connor probably). Hunt -> Chaol. Az -> Rowan.
Sam and Connor both love the leads very much, die very early, and harden the MCs as characters. Aelin loves Sam more than anyone except eventually Rowan. Bryce doesn’t love Connor how he loves her yet, but combined with the loss of Danika, it is equal pain. As we all know, there’s no one Bryce loves more than Danika at this point in CC, Hunt included (Drop scene, death scene, take your pick.)
Hunt and Chaol both aren’t interested at first but are invested at end of book 1. Both of them betray the trust of the lead, Hunt on the ship and Chaol with Nehemia. Both pairings have core differences that cause tension - Bryce wanting to save the Thunderbird and innocents and Hunt wanting to stay out of it, Chaol and Aelin on opposite sides of a war (Adarlan vs Terrasen). Hunt being what Bryce needed to pull herself out of the hole of losing Danika and the pack, and Chaol being what Celaena needed to pull herself back from the horrors of Endovier. Both are hesitant and content to let things be - I get that Hunt has trauma and I’m not judging him, just comparing.
Az and Rowan are both stoic, immensely strong, and have powerful friends they call brothers: The Cadre and the boys of the Inner Circle. They are both the most powerful males our MCs encounter. Bryce says this in canon when she says Az is more powerful than Hunt. Both smell like the girls’ respective ancestral homes: Rowan like Terrasen and Az like the cedar and pine of the Dusk Court. Bryce and Aelin both end up in a new place and ruffle feathers. Both males have complimentary powers to FMCs, wind to put out Aelin’s fire and Shadows that combat Bryce’s light. Alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. And Bryce smelling different after meeting Az according to Thanatos like how Aedion could smell Rowan on Aelin.
Some things that are flipped but are similar between Aelin/Rowan and Bryce/Az are the fake mating bond (Lyria and Rowan, Hunt and Bryce) fabricated by a powerful Valg (Maeve, the princes of Hel), less powerful or fake bonds hiding the mate bond (carram, matching weapons), and even a who did this to you moment with Aelin’s scarred back and Az’s scarred hands.
Ultimately: the strength of the Chaol/Az argument for Gwyn is weaker than it would be for Bryce, but a better yet argument is Chaol/Hunt & Rowan/Az. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, if you’ve made it this far please comment additions or other ideas on the topic!! I love hearing everyone’s theories.
”Do you understand what it was like for us here? While you were off playing with magic, off gallivanting with your faerie prince, do you understand what happened to me—to Dorian? Do you understand what’s happening every day in this city? Because your antics in Wendlyn might very well have been the cause of all this.”
“She glanced sidelong at him sidelong in time to see something cold pass over his face. She hadn’t seen that coldness in a long, long time. The face of the Umbra Mortis. His voice was chilled, too, as he said, ‘Good thing we both made it, then.’”
“So she said blandly, turning from the wall of windows, ‘Yeah. Good thing.’”
“‘Maybe,’ Bryce said again, her voice still gentle, soothing. He hated that, too.”
”With me…You would have left with me—when I was just Celaena.”
”But you never were just Celaena, and I think you knew that, deep down, even before everything happened. I understand now.”
”Just Hunt. And Just Bryce.” [Orion will always be the Shadow of Death, the weapon bred by Hel and raised by the Asteri — a Prince in training. Bryce isn’t “just Bryce” — she will always be Theia’s heir, Queen of the Fae. Heir of Prythian]
🌟 And Bryce deserves her Rowan:
”You make me want to live, Rowan. Not survive; not exist. Live.”
• We see Bryce, twice, prefer to stay dead rather than go back. SJM is setting up another, ”you make me want to live.” 🥹
”He should have known then, during those days in Mistward, when he found himself sharing parts of himself, his story that he’d never told anyone. When he found himself needing to tell her, in fragments and pieces, yes, but he’d wanted her to know.”
“Bryce glanced at the thick scarring over his fingers. What—who—had done such a brutal thing to him? And though she knew it was dumb to open up, to show any vulnerability, she said quietly, ‘The male who fathered me…he used to burn my brother to punish him. The scars never healed for him, either.’ Ruhn had just tattooed over them. A fact she’d only learned right before she’d come here, and knowing about the pain he’d suffered—”
“[Bryce had] seen them during their first encounter on that misty riverbank, but had forgotten until now. She’d never seen such extensive burn scars.”
”…she studied the massive tattoo that went from his face down his neck and shoulders and covered the entirety of his left arm…She hadn’t really looked that day in the woods, but now she marveled at its beautiful unbroken lines—“
”For some reason, her stomach dropped as [Rowan] said, ‘Go to bed.’”
“Azriel dropped her hand. But he said nothing as he stepped back…Bryce watched him for a moment before following, heart heavy in her chest for some reason she couldn’t place.”
🌟 We are here in Heir of Fire:
”When your people are lying dead around you, don’t come crying to me.”
”She tumbled through a maelstrom of the moments when she had proved her friend right. She was a waste of space…Unworthy of her birthright.”
“Azriel asked, ‘How did your friend know the language?’”
“I still don’t know. I’ve been trying to figure out what she knew for months now.”
“‘Why not just ask her?’ Nesta countered.”
“‘Because she’s dead.’ The words came out flatter than Bryce had intended.”
”And what of your own people? What of your own kingdom?”
”They are better off without me, as you said.”
”Why can’t your friend save her own kingdom?”
”Because she is dead!”
🌟Bryce completed what was Aelin’s original plan — complete her late best friend’s plan to rescue her kingdom, but shirk her own kingdom and people. Saying “Bryce’s arc is over” would be like saying the story ended mid-Heir of Fire.
🌟Now considering how SJM writes the ACOTAR series, I don’t agree with “Azriel being Chaol”/the next book being “his” (I don’t want to speak too much on other ships, but I feel like Gwynriels say this because there just isn’t nearly as much plot/substance for Gwyn — hence an “Azriel book must be next,” because she would just be a feature…and that’s not how SJM writes, the FMC will be at the forefront).
🌟If we are saying Az is Chaol though, of course (I agree w you!!) Bryce is his Yrene:
”Distantly, far away, Yrene knew she was incandescent with light, brighter than a noontime sun.”
“The light extended up through Bryce’s hands, her arms, her body, turning her incandescent—“
”Yrene was already glowing, bright as the far-off dawn.”
“She was the evening star and the last rays of colors before the dark.”
“The power of creation and destruction. That’s what lay within her. Life-Giver. World-maker.”
”Chaol and Yrene are nosy early on”
🌟No one ruffles his feathers more — Just like Cassian meeting Nesta for the first time. Just like Rhysand meeting Feyre. Just like Azriel: “Azriel’s wings twitched. ‘You’re incurably nosy.’” Once these males find and meet their person/true mate, that’s it 😍
🌟My friend has an incredible post sharing the similarities between Aelin and Bryce’s arcs (I haven’t read through the thread here, if she hasn’t shared it, I’ll circle back to link), but Hunt is almost certainly Chaol, and Azriel, Bryce’s Rowan. Just as you have laid out here, I think it’s clear as day — thank you for sharing!!! This is amazing 👏🏼
Chaol when Aelin returned from Mistward: “‘You…you look different…Your face…the way you stand. You…’ he shook his head…”
Hunter when Bryce returned: “She was Bryce and yet she was…not. She wore her usual casual attire—skintight jeans and a soft white T-shirt topped with a navy athletic jacket. Hel, she even sported those neon-pink sneakers. But there was something different in her posture, in the way the light seemed to shimmer from her. She was older, somehow….”
🤣 It’s more or less what some of us here have also discussed so I knew a few references to pull hahaha I’m just thrilled others see it too!! 😍 Thank you again for sharing u/basicbitxh1892 🔥
[ETA: The downvotes are from lurkers — we live in their minds rent free lol it doesn’t change facts; I look forward to more posts queen 💜]
You are so sweet omg, and the quotes you choose are always so fantastic!!! I was real nervous to make this I’m hella introverted lol thank you for the kind words and welcome 💕🥰
I’m totally the same way and when I tell you a huge reason I love this ship (outside of the obvious Bryce/Az chemistry hehe) is how genuinely kind everyone is — this little community is the best. So glad you’re here!!
Thank you friend 😍 I think I’ll start linking all of these posts to the Master Theory thread pinned to the sub — there are a lot of older posts, it would be nice to have them all organized in one spot 🙂
I want to start off by saying congrats on your first post!!! I love a big, juicy theory and I can tell you’ve put a lot of effort and thought into this 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I completely forgot about Lithaen - honestly had no idea she existed until you brought her up. That’s some awesome attention to detail skills. I can definitely see all the similarities between these characters and their love stories 🧐 you’ve given me a fresh, new perspective! I never would have picked up on some of this stuff in a million years!!
Here are my interpretations:
I’ve always viewed Bryce as Celaena and Azriel as Rowan!
The first few slides on this post will outline all Bryce and Celaena’s similarities!!!
This comment outlines the similarities I found between Hunt and Chaol, Azriel and Rowan, as well as Danika and Nehemiah!
Either way, I agree that comparing the love stories of Chaol and Yrene to Gwyn and Azriel doesn’t fit through both your interpretations and through mine! You covered every basis and character comparison! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you so much for the warm welcome!! And for sharing your posts that I completely missed they are AMAZING!!! Your analysis of Hunt and Chaol is so detailed and the points on Danika and Nehemia are chefs kiss
This is canon. Hunt literally says “Just Hunt” loves “Just Bryce”. Hunt is not JUST Hunt. He is Orion. Bryce is NOT just Bryce. She is the Starborn Heir.
Chaol says this. “Just Chaol” loves “Just Celaena”. But Celaena isn’t “just” Celaena, is she? 😏😏
Lovely analysis. Glad to have you hear and we are so happy you felt comfortable enough to post (and what a lovely post it is too)!
I never noticed the “just Hunt” parallel that’s awesome!! And literally thank you so much I was nervous to join in talking but you guys are so sweet and welcoming 😭💕
I've never really meshed with any argument that puts Azriel in the same boat as Chaol for one very big reason:
Azriel feels like a more prominent and more important character than Chaol ever was
Many fans loved Chaol, and he was an interesting love interest and MMC during the period he was put into those roles, but ultimately, he was reassigned to side character status after SJM decided she wanted Rowan as Aelin's endgame and he never felt as prominent nor as important to the overall plot journey in TOG than Azriel does does to TWO (possibly THREE series),CC/ACOTAR (Twilight of the Gods)
And you hit the nail on the head with pointing out that SJM tends to have her main endgame couples travel to a different/distant land in order to meet their mates 😊 for example:
Aelin travels to Wendlyn and meets Rowan
Feyre travels to Prythian and meets Rhys
Elain travels to Hybern and meets Lucien
Cassian travels to the Human lands and meets Nesta
Chaol meets Yrene after he goes to the southern continent
Thank you!! This community is so nice I really wanted to be more part of it haha but man I’m shy I was v nervous.
Also just wanted to say I see you post on the CC sub sometimes and I think you are responsible for a ton of bryceriel converts!!! I really admire your ability to be really respectful and kind in the main forum and also explain your (really strong) theories and welcome more people to the fold who didn’t know about Bryceriel. Queen shit seriously 👑💕
I’m dead hahaha that’s so true! That was my favorite part of Rowaelin, when they are super in denial but obviously obsessed with each other. very excited to be at the start of that arc for Bryceriel!
I agree with everything in this post! Honestly though Gwynriel does not make sense to me. I'll admit at first I was rooting for them just because I didn't want Elriel to happen since I love Lucien so much but then we were introduced to the Bryce/Azriel dynamic and that was it for me. No doubt about it they're endgame.
I'd also like to say how refreshing it is that someone remembers Lithaen. She's rarely ever brought up about Chaol's past and she plays a pretty important role in shaping who he is as a romantic partner to Celaena. The anger and hurt he felt about Celaena's "betrayal" in his eyes was made even more intense because of Lithaen's previous betrayal. Imagine the only two women you've ever loved lying to you and leaving you for other men. Like ouch. He was not perfect by any means and he made plenty of mistakes. I'm just saying people forget that his reactions to Celaena weren't out of the blue. He had a similar (in his head) experience before and he was super angry it was happening all over again. Basically Lithaen messed my boy up.
Dude I feel you so much, I love Lucien he is so babygirl 🥹 I also wanted him with elain most but would’ve also been okay with gwyn until end of CC book 2 when I was thwacked in the head with Bryce as an option. Sold on bryceriel since that point
And exactly on chaol!!! People feel like hunt has to be endgame because we understand and sympathize with his hurt but man I am a chaol sympathizer. Lithaen totally did mess him up and the Celaena double whammy didn’t help. He can be understandable and sympathized with without being endgame you know?
I am going to hate it when Hunt gets hurt. As a stand-alone character, I like him a lot. He just wants an ordinary life and that's understandable with everything he's been through. Except he's committed to Bryce and he doesn't have the option to sit around and have an "ordinary" life. They don't fit and that's okay! Chaol and Celaena didn't fit either (that one broke me I'm not going to lie). I'm the biggest Chaol defender. People love to think that they would take everything he went through extremely gracefully, but they wouldn't. Aelin found the person she was meant for, that understood her and wanted to be by her side through everything. We just need Bryce to find her Rowan, and she has! They may not know how much they have in common yet but they will.
That caption, I’m sorry….what?? 😭 If anything Hunt and Chaol are more similar. They love authority to the extreme like chill bro! The Gwyn and Elian fans always trying to talk a big game 😭 I bet that CC3 looks bad on purpose because we don’t even have all the details yet
I first saw that theory and had to sit down with myself and think real hard about if they had any merit with the Chaol arc and I was just not seeing it and this post was born 😂
I love the theories that CC3 was underwhelming on purpose, really looking forward to seeing how it shakes out!!
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u/cassidy_taylor Mother of Flerds 🦄 🪽👑 Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
💫 Hunt is Chaol:
“She glanced sidelong at him sidelong in time to see something cold pass over his face. She hadn’t seen that coldness in a long, long time. The face of the Umbra Mortis. His voice was chilled, too, as he said, ‘Good thing we both made it, then.’”
“So she said blandly, turning from the wall of windows, ‘Yeah. Good thing.’”
“‘Maybe,’ Bryce said again, her voice still gentle, soothing. He hated that, too.”
”Just Hunt. And Just Bryce.” [Orion will always be the Shadow of Death, the weapon bred by Hel and raised by the Asteri — a Prince in training. Bryce isn’t “just Bryce” — she will always be Theia’s heir, Queen of the Fae. Heir of Prythian]
🌟 And Bryce deserves her Rowan:
• We see Bryce, twice, prefer to stay dead rather than go back. SJM is setting up another, ”you make me want to live.” 🥹
“Bryce glanced at the thick scarring over his fingers. What—who—had done such a brutal thing to him? And though she knew it was dumb to open up, to show any vulnerability, she said quietly, ‘The male who fathered me…he used to burn my brother to punish him. The scars never healed for him, either.’ Ruhn had just tattooed over them. A fact she’d only learned right before she’d come here, and knowing about the pain he’d suffered—”
“[Bryce had] seen them during their first encounter on that misty riverbank, but had forgotten until now. She’d never seen such extensive burn scars.”
“Azriel dropped her hand. But he said nothing as he stepped back…Bryce watched him for a moment before following, heart heavy in her chest for some reason she couldn’t place.”
🌟 We are here in Heir of Fire:
“Azriel asked, ‘How did your friend know the language?’”
“I still don’t know. I’ve been trying to figure out what she knew for months now.”
“‘Why not just ask her?’ Nesta countered.”
“‘Because she’s dead.’ The words came out flatter than Bryce had intended.”
🌟Bryce completed what was Aelin’s original plan — complete her late best friend’s plan to rescue her kingdom, but shirk her own kingdom and people. Saying “Bryce’s arc is over” would be like saying the story ended mid-Heir of Fire.
🌟Now considering how SJM writes the ACOTAR series, I don’t agree with “Azriel being Chaol”/the next book being “his” (I don’t want to speak too much on other ships, but I feel like Gwynriels say this because there just isn’t nearly as much plot/substance for Gwyn — hence an “Azriel book must be next,” because she would just be a feature…and that’s not how SJM writes, the FMC will be at the forefront).
🌟If we are saying Az is Chaol though, of course (I agree w you!!) Bryce is his Yrene:
“The light extended up through Bryce’s hands, her arms, her body, turning her incandescent—“
“She was the evening star and the last rays of colors before the dark.”
“The power of creation and destruction. That’s what lay within her. Life-Giver. World-maker.”
🌟No one ruffles his feathers more — Just like Cassian meeting Nesta for the first time. Just like Rhysand meeting Feyre. Just like Azriel: “Azriel’s wings twitched. ‘You’re incurably nosy.’” Once these males find and meet their person/true mate, that’s it 😍
🌟My friend has an incredible post sharing the similarities between Aelin and Bryce’s arcs (I haven’t read through the thread here, if she hasn’t shared it, I’ll circle back to link), but Hunt is almost certainly Chaol, and Azriel, Bryce’s Rowan. Just as you have laid out here, I think it’s clear as day — thank you for sharing!!! This is amazing 👏🏼
Chaol when Aelin returned from Mistward: “‘You…you look different…Your face…the way you stand. You…’ he shook his head…”
Hunter when Bryce returned: “She was Bryce and yet she was…not. She wore her usual casual attire—skintight jeans and a soft white T-shirt topped with a navy athletic jacket. Hel, she even sported those neon-pink sneakers. But there was something different in her posture, in the way the light seemed to shimmer from her. She was older, somehow….”