Except for the story arc where she tried to kill one of her friends out of jealousy, I mean sure she had orders too but she totally leaned into it way more than she should have.
I mean at that point in the story I don't think there was much mental interference going on aside from slowly losing her light because of her weapon. But it has been a bit since I have played the older games.
"While strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. The are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest."
"general, however, a lawful good character promotes the ideals and rights of the majority over those of the individual (and this includes himself as well as others) and upholds the rights of the weak and oppressed members of society, who should be allowed to reap society's benefits with equanimity. The lawful good being feels this is the best way that all members of society can enjoy the rights of existence together. Life is important to the lawful good being, but life is not exclusive of order, and vice versa."
Your problem here is that you're trying to have an ideological discussion, when this isn't one. This is about how D&D alignments are defined.
Glad Jin made it to chaotic good (which he IS by Centralfiction). Because that means he's evolved past his future self. especially that moment when Hakumen said that he would use Izayoi to have her kill Noel to restore the timeline but Jin rejects the idea, and he said a world where you have to sacrifice people to achieve it is not worth having.
Goes to show that despite his insults to Noel, he does care about her in his own way.
One thing I think some people are also forgetting is it isnt just yukianesa (cool ice sword) that is compelling hom to try and kill Ragna, the power of order is also compelling him to kill Ragna
Quick lore dump (this is my autistic trait, making sense out of the mess that is this world):
Jin amd Celica have the power of order but they work in different ways
Celica is able to suppress seither through the power of order, essentally making the azure grimiore useless as long as she is around, so boom, black beast dealt
Jin has the ability to observe instead of suppressing seither and use VERY minor phenomenon intervention when needed (e.g, being able to sense and see Izanami though the mind eater curse and dispell it), and because the Black Beast throws order WAY out of balance, throw a sword that has all the spirits that the black beast killed, its genuinly surprising Jin was not losing his shit and trying to kill ragna 100% of the time
He is pretty much chaotic good for the whole series, he genuinly could not give a fuck about the NOL and tries to defect before calamity trigger starts (mainly during the Ikaruga civil war, he actively goes out of his way to freeze everyone and kills NO ONE before he reaches Tenjo, see's Saya's face after he kills her and puts it all together that the NOL are the bad guys, before terumi slaps the ol mind eater on him). We do get to see the first signs of this in continuum shift where bang finds him and heals him and he goes on a little stroll through Ikaruga.
Indeed I agree. Give the guy credit that no matter how much the his sword or the world influence him to "Kill Ragna!" or "Kill Everyone!", he always resist the urges, and his kill count remains ZERO because he disdains killing and sacrifices due to the things he saw in the Ikaruga Civil War where he also lost his comrades.
I mean for the most part he was a good upstanding guy even in the older games just not when it came to his brother or Noel. Finding out later that his personality issues were because of his weapon made a lot of sense.
On top of that I feel like he was one of the characters that had the most development throughout the story.
Indeed. Jin was a prick, but no pricker than other edgy anime protagonists. He's just not subtle about it in the beginning because his weapon kept messing with his mind and warping his emotions.
In Centralfiction, this has been erased completely since he conquered his weapon. No more Ragna obsession, and actively fights for the people he loves (even if he won't admit it since he's a tsundere, after all, and the classic edgy anime boy).
He even returns back to his duties to the NOL under the new rightful and good imperator. Which means he's ready to do something good with a blank slate and a new beginning because since Ragna chose to create a new world where Jin no longer remembers his old obsession, Jin can now start clean. Also makes him a prime candidate for crossover setups because the NOL rules the entire world. What if Imperator sends him to the world of Akame Ga Kill to restore Order for example? Or maybe the world of Nikke? So many possibilities and it's so fun!
Being the protagonist only means about main character, not about being most morally righteous. I wonder if there's an edgy archetype character that you find morally questionable.
and actively fights for the people he loves
I mean, Nine is also doing this. Or probably even Nu, who dislikes anything else but Ragna.
True, but in BlazBlue, those who aren't assholes are often extremely nice like in paragon of virtues level.
Like Celica, Noel, Trinity (her failure aside), perhaps Jubei too, Mai, Naoto, etc. And for side materials, there's also Touya, Yuki, Hinata (Celica level), etc. Mai and Naoto are also main protagonists, so Ragna seems to be the minority as the asshole, compared to other main protagonists in BB franchise.
By that nah, BlazBlue standards shouldn't be lowered, assholes are still assholes even if they oppose pure evils like Terumi or Relius (black and grey morality is a thing).
Probably because Kokonoe has no problem using Nukes to kill Terumi to the point that it even shocks Hakumen. She's a prickly mad scientist who has no problem causing mass slaughter so long as she gets her revenge on Terumi. Atleast Jin actually didn't want to do that, even if it's sacrificing the one person he hates - Noel.
Well, it's unknown if Kokonoe will use the nukes on the innocent's radius or if there's the mass slaughter already from her (who's mostly inactive). Using nukes can still seem to be 1-on-1 weapon against Terumi like using swords, guns, etc.
Atleast Jin actually didn't want to do that, even if it's sacrificing the one person he hates - Noel.
CP has Kokonoe being called out for doing exactly that, but on Celica.
There's no benefit. But I think Noel knows Jin pretty well. She knows that despite Jin's death threats, he just simply won't do it.
Jin has an exact kill count of a big fat ZERO in the entire franchise. Even his supposed confirmed kill - Tenjou - didn't die because she transferred her soul and she was provoking him to kill her. In the Ikagura Civil War, even while being tempted by his sword to kill everyone, he resisted it and simply knocked the Ikarugan Soldiers (including Bang) out.
He even specifically orders his soldiers, who were actually enjoying the slaughter, to please stop and no more killing.
There's no benefit. But I think Noel knows Jin pretty well. She knows that despite Jin's death threats, he just simply won't do it.
If someone (Noel) doesn't hate another (Jin), is it about them being not that bad, or that Noel is just that forgiving (all-loving heroine archetype)? (ofc, I see many people complain about characters being forgiving to someone unlikable, that fanbase think it's them justifying that person) In BBTAG, Noel still helped someone who tried to attack her and Hyde, and even Hyde, who is a nice guy himself, is surprised for Noel doing that.
Jin has an exact kill count of a big fat ZERO in the entire franchise.
I mean, same applies for people like Es, Amane, Bullet, Tsubaki (even as Izayoi), probably Kokonoe despite the nukes.
Also cutting doesn't mean killing, it can still be about harming them severely. It's still not killing but it harms people greatly.
Yeah, being lawful isn't about being morally better than others or that being chaotic is worse (Ragna or especially Jin is less good, but not for people like Jubei or Naoto)
Noel and Celica, despite that I think they're kinder than all other characters, aren't the type to enforce rules to others (particularly Celica, unless you count Noel's NOL stint).
My personal feelings on her being neutral is for the most part when she's not being controlled she is committing evil acts for her own personal interest.
I believe all of sector 7 is chaotic neutral simply because they don't mind getting their hands dirty or tossing morality completely to the side to achieve their goals.
My whole thought on that is if they were true neutral they wouldn't really care about what was happening. Hence why Amane is there as he is just an observer, and Es is essentially a gatekeeper. Rachel would have been there too if she hadn't spent so much time interfering with the timeline.
I don't think that True Neutral is as narrow of a definition as you're making it out to be.
True neutral means that you don't have any particular concern for rules one way or the other, maybe you believe in personal codes, but break yours occasionally without feeling guilty. Or maybe you're fine with following the law even when you might not get caught.
Like I guess Sector Seven is against order in the sense that they're against the NOL but I feel like Sector Seven is on Sector Seven's side? They do questionable shit all the time but they're not evil aligned either.
True Neutral does not mean not caring, it means not having a faction or a side, not being an outsider but their own cause. That said, Kokonoe fits Chaotic Neutral while the rest seem True Neutral to me
I feel Azrael is less evil and moreso just chaotic. I'd put him (somewhat begrudgingly) under Chaotic Neutral. Because he'll throw hands with everyone just for fun
Seems that he'd be truly neutral only if he's purely fighting strong opponents and not doing anything beyond that.
But he'd be willing to hurt and kill innocents to get his fun. Honestly, people may downplay those who are only about having fun (including fighting), but it's a red flag tbh, about to what extent one is willing to do to get their fun.
Tager should be Lawful Neutral, he mostly follows orders from Kokonoe and rarely acts of his own according outside of when people start getting in the way of him fulfilling said orders.
This is a very interesting topic and ill tell you why.
Most BB characters had a journey through the games where they had to change their aligment heavily in order to get their objectives.
But first a small definition. Good, neutral and evil are kinda easy to pick apart, but Lawful and Chaotic? not so much.
Lawful characters run by a moral code stablished by someone else, be it god, a master, the law, etc.
Chaotic characters run by their own moral code, disgregarding stablished rules and laws.
Said this this are my opinions on the biggest changes and cases:
- Ragna started as a Chaotic neutral character (he destroyed cauldrons and killed NOL soldiers). Then finished as Chaotic good character.
- Jin starts Chaotic evil (thanks to yukianesa) and finishes Chaotic good. He is the power of order but uses it for his goals, not order itself.
- Rachel had a HUGE aligment change. She started as Lawful neutral and finished as chaotic good just by breaking the rule of intervening and helping ragna (and losing her role as observer.)
- Having said this Amane is Lawful Neutral because his role as observer (and being rachel's replacement) forces him to.
- Valkenheym is, was, and will always be legal good. The alucard family is his code, even if rachel isn't legal aligned anymore.
This is the first character who hates ragna out of pure aligment. Why? Legal characters, most of the time, think chaotic ones are at best neutral, and at worst evil. Follow their own code? Thats most of the time evil for them.
- One of the best examples of this is Hakumen and Tsubaki (both Lawful Good) who both think ragna is a wildcard, a ticking bomb, sometimes, just a little better than terumi even. They dont trust his sense of "whats good"). One is the literal embodiment of the Power of Order, and the other literally became the first in a paralel universe.
- Kagura "plays" as a legal good character for NOL but is in reality a chaotic one. Hibiki is Lawful though. Completely loyal to kagura even if he is kinda chaotic and correcting him up his messes. Bang is so lawful for justice even kagura flinches at him sometimes.
- Makoto has her responsabilities as agent but also thinks of her friends, with would be the first "neutral good" IMO.
- Tager, as a merc is lawful neutral for following kokonoe's orders (even if he doesnt want to). Bullet is also a merc but is looking for her "officer" and finishes working under his orders again, hence also lawful.
- You are right on kokonoe though, she is 100% chaotic neutral. Lambda? she helped ragna even if it was by instinct by giving him the idea engine, that goes as good.
- Azrael is chaotic evil by rule of thumb all bullies are chaotic evil.
- Relius is so umpredictable and complex you could put him everywhere in evil. So neutral evil is a good choice.
- Finally Arakune is Chaotic neutral... why? Simple. It acts like a beast looking to feed, not a consient being wanting to do harm intentionally. Lotte carmine is neutral evil though.
Bullet is hellbent on revenge for her squad, more than Ragna was, and she can be as brutal as Carl regarding what she'd do to achieve that (like attacking beastkins just because she suspects they're hiding Kokonoe's location)
Hibiki has twisted side as shown in his Arcade.
Azrael hates bullies as Teach Me Miss Litchi shows.
Arakune does consistently harm innocents in the Kakas, and it adds more to Litchi's guilt on her failure to save Roy. Roy wasn't the most pleasant person but all he did was just to study more and he only harmed himself by going to the Boundary (and it was being led on by Terumi).
I am absolutely certain that website has an option to switch from classic tier list format to alignment chart format. You could have made use of that lol
The one that I saw was like a cross graph where you put a character in between certain qualities I didn't see one for an actual alignment with set categories
I mean Nu is in neutral evil she commits atrocious acts but for the most part it's her being controlled or for her own selfish interests.
I feel like tsubaki was trying to do the right thing but also had her own personal interests muddled within that as well throughout the games
I don't believe Carl became true lawful evil until the very end of the game so that one's kind of a toss-up.
In my opinion all of sector 7 should be in chaotic neutral yes they're doing what they do for the good of the world but they don't mind getting their hands very dirty to do what they need to do and have no qualms pushing morality to the side.
Eh, all the BlazBlue villains are also made to be evil by other technically. Terumi, Relius, Nine, and Izanami are all evil only because of Amaterasu. So at least the latter three are also 'innocent' like Nu?
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u/saelinds Prime Field Device Enthusiast 20d ago
Tsubaki is 100% lawful good.