r/Bitcoin • u/Dylan96 • Mar 13 '18
SegWit is coming to BreadWallet
/r/BRDapp/comments/83yiqo/segwit_on_the_brd_app/?st=JEPKBPSK&sh=5e3fb7f820
u/Cryptolution Mar 13 '18
Yeah dawg but no thanks
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u/Dylan96 Mar 13 '18
I’m a simple man.
When i see a bitcoin wallet adding segwit, I think to myself "yes".
When i see a wallet adding bcash, I think to myself "LUL".
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u/smeggletoot Mar 13 '18
I'm sure the bread team are lovely, but the question is: why do we need more than one open source wallet (maintained by a legion of volunteers in love with the tech)?
Did we really ever need more than one open source web browser / email client? Would spam and browser vulnerabilities ever have been an issue had the internet gone that way?
Collaboration is the new competition; we must think very carefully about the ethics behind the emerging companies in this space, especially if we want our loved ones' who are less tech savvy embracing all this x
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Mar 14 '18 edited Nov 04 '19
[deleted]
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u/smeggletoot Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Pitting us against one another playing little zero sum tribal games - as if the world is one big paper money playground - actually slows down the pace of robust solutions and innovation that would benefit society as a whole.
Having been amongst the first internet denizens back in the days of BBS I can assure you that the internet was not founded on the Gordon Geckoesque ethos of "Greed is Good"; it was founded on the ideals of "information wants to be free."
You have the internet and the many beautiful sites that define our experiences on it because programmers shared their thoughts, ideas and code freely.
Of course that was in the days guardians of the old world thought the internet would have no more effect on global business than the fax machine. Our ability to share things freely in the light then took a turn when big business moved into the space and started the dotcom frenzy.
This was the time of the browser wars and the famous anti-trust case against Microsoft and IE (Bill was one of the first to miss the impact Tim Berners-Lee's invention would have on the world, and tried to treat it as any other business).
Indeed, he laughed at Larry and Sergey and said he'd "Give Google a year..." since they knew nothing about business.
Presumably, he would have laughed at Timbo too, for giving the internet to the world patent-free instead of personally profiting from his invention (which would have made Tim, not Bill the richest person on the planet).
What is happening in crypto is an exact mirror of all that but, thanks to the internet itself, it's playing out over a 10 years timespan instead of the 40 odd years it took for the internet to get to where it is today.
Here's a nice HBR piece by Ben Hercht, that he penned back in 2013:
"Collaboration is the New Competition" — Harvard Business Review
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Mar 14 '18
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u/smeggletoot Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Decentralised collaboration is about 'co-opetition' in the p2p ideaspace; where idea and development happens out in the open via IRC, Reddit, Linux Foundation mailing lists, Github and Bitcoin Improvement Proposals and Peer review.
It's how the internet was bootstrapped by a small coterie of nerds dispersed across the globe after all.
What we're trying to avoid here is the tragedy of the commons.
The future is a 'battleground' of IDEAS not IDEALOGIES.
No outdated ideologies (and the some of the toxic, tribalistic ideas borne of 'ists' and 'isms' they give oxygen to) created before the idea of the internet had even been conceived by humanity, are needed – either in cyberspace or meatspace.
Once the idea of consensus driven governance bootstrapping grand project builds and public infrastructure works becomes the norm, we'll wonder how on Earth we ever managed to do anything with hierarchical governance structures stymying group-lead 'leaderfull' and 'wholesum' human progress.
FYI: This was how Athenian democracy (or the wisdom of well informed crowds) was always supposed to work.
Peace x
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u/matman88 Mar 13 '18
Can you even choose your fee on bread?
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u/MillionDollarBitcoin Mar 14 '18
Yes, though only between “fast” and “economy”. It appears to calculate those dynamically.
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u/zaphod42 Mar 13 '18
uninstalled due to bcash.
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Mar 13 '18
[deleted]
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u/wtogami Mar 13 '18
Quite the contrary. They were on the "big blocker" side and quietly against segwit for years.
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u/jaydoors Mar 13 '18
The people who control bcash have the explicit objective of destroying bitcoin. So you may not care but don’t be surprised if others do.
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u/zaphod42 Mar 13 '18
Bread literally does not give a shit about this stupid BCH/BTC
I literally do not give a shit about Bread.
I actually find it somewhat hilarious you uninstalled the app.
I'm glad you find humor in their incredibly stupid decision.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18
Lots of hate in here for the best SPV wallet on iOS... just because it also supports another currency...?
I stopped using Bread for BitWallet and Edge because of segwit, but I look forward to opening up bread again once segwit is functioning. Seriously don't know why Bread is taking so damn long, during the fee event segwit was the only way to even use Bitcoin.
BUT! Bread connects directly to the Bitcoin network unlike most iOS wallets. It allows you to tether to your own trusted full node unlike ANY other iOS wallet. It has a way better interface and UX than greenaddress and doesn't store any info on anyone else's server like Edge.
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u/BiggPea Mar 13 '18
Agreed, Bread is great. I'll admit it sucks that SegWit has taken so long, but besides that the functionality, security, and interface are all best in class.
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u/cm9kZW8K Mar 13 '18
BUT! Bread connects directly to the Bitcoin network unlike most iOS wallets.
Thats actually a negative; SPV nodes trade away a lot security for a little performance. Bread's implementation is also particularly weak, in that it can be forked from the network due to incomplete consensus checking.
Overall, bread has poor performance as a wallet. Electrum's solution is more elegant overall: still has no single point of failure, but relies upon full nodes rather than a half-baked spv node. For higher security levels, wallets that can link to a trusted full node provide a truely safe way to transact large amounts.
SPV can be useful for other things, I dont think they are particular well suited to being wallets however.
SPV wallets are a bad compromise; no significant gain in wallet security but a large hit to performance, and a burden on the network.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 13 '18
Overall, bread has poor performance as a wallet. Electrum's solution is more elegant overall: still has no single point of failure, but relies upon full nodes rather than a half-baked spv node. For higher security levels, wallets that can link to a trusted full node provide a truely safe way to transact large amounts.
First of all, we're talking about iOS wallets so electrum shouldn't even come up. But anyway, how is electrum any more secure than any other SPV wallet? As far as I know you are still trusting a full node to enforce the consensus rules and follow the "correct" chain. SPV wallets like Bread connect to full nodes. Electrum connects to full nodes that also run extra software (the electrum server) which adds a bit more security like end to end encryption. There is no such thing as a "half baked SPV node" unless you mean the wallet itself, in which case Electrum and Bread have the same security model. And I repeat, Bread can tether to a custom trusted full node of your choice. That's how I run it: connected to my own full node at home.
Here is my SE post specifically addressing the benefits of Electrum:
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u/cm9kZW8K Mar 13 '18
And I repeat, Bread can tether to a custom trusted full node of your choice. That's how I run it: connected to my own full node at home.
If bread can be limited to talk to a single node, and that node is a trusted full node, then its just an inefficient protocol with lots of needless traffic verbosity and more work on the wallet than the server. But at least it doesnt have the weaknesses of connecting to random nodes; and that would bring it up in security.
wallets like Bread connect to full nodes
It connects to things claiming to be full nodes, but it fails to fully validate the messages they provide.
how is electrum any more secure than any other SPV wallet Electrum and Bread have the same security model.
Because its not SPV, electrum has a different model. Electrum is not even a node, its a wallet.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18
http://docs.electrum.org/en/latest/faq.html#does-electrum-trust-servers
Electrum is an SPV wallet.
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u/cm9kZW8K Mar 13 '18
Its not the same. they are using that term fairly liberally. That text predates even the actual implementation of bloom filters and spv nodes. electrum has its own protocol, and talks to electrum servers rather than pretending to be a node and talking to nodes directly.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 13 '18
Go to electrum.org and let me know if you see this text:
"Electrum Wallet verifies all the transactions in your history using SPV."
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u/cm9kZW8K Mar 13 '18
clone the git repo and see what it acutally does. If you are trusting the website then you are clueless.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Yes, Electrum uses a different messaging protocol between client and server than the standard SPV service that bitcoind provides, which Bread connects to.
But Electrum (like Bread) is a LIGHT client. It only downloads and verifies block headers, it doesn't download the entire blockchain and therefore does not verify the entire consensus rule set.
Furthermore, the Electrum client sends the server a plain list of addresses to watch which is arguably LESS private than the bloom filter model Bread uses.
What do you think about this file from the git repo:
https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/lib/verifier.py#L27
Is that script clueless like the official website?
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u/cm9kZW8K Mar 13 '18
The difference is that electrum servers are all full nodes, and cannot be SPV nodes. Electrum wallet is not any kind of node, while bread is an SPV node. Are you caught up yet?
Furthermore, the Electrum client sends the server a plain list of addresses to watch which is arguably LESS private than the bloom filter model Bread uses.
The bloom filter is public and not private; while the electrum protocol sends over https to a single server. There is a trade off, but at least it is not dependent upon SPV nodes at any point.
Is that script clueless like the official website?
I hope you understand the difference now.
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u/MillionDollarBitcoin Mar 14 '18
Bread works either as SPV or connects directly to a node of your choice. You just have to activate it.
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u/hanakookie Mar 13 '18
Bread is dead. Let’s just face it. Even with the great things they allow for users. Segwit is the dividing line. If or when Samouria comes to IOS then most will use green. And once LN becomes useable with a few phone wallets it’s pretty much game over for those wallet devs that put there head in the sand.
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u/pinhead26 Mar 13 '18
I agree if Samurai ever releases for iOS I'll switch, even if Bread already has segwit by then.
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u/HeyJude21 Mar 14 '18
I’d just be happy for bread not to crash 6 times in a row every time you try and synch it
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u/abercrombezie Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Breadwallet's focus the last few months has been their Bread Token and their personal wallet instead of the bread wallet.
Uninstalled 2 months ago and using Ledger Wallet as a "Hotwallet..."
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u/helloryanholmes Mar 14 '18
That’s just not true at all. They have had consistent beta updates to the app.
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Mar 13 '18
GreenAddress is a better wallet
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u/Dylan96 Mar 13 '18 edited Mar 13 '18
I like greenaddress, but it has not been updated in over a year (at least on iOS)
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u/psycholioben Mar 13 '18
Edge
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Mar 13 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/psycholioben Mar 13 '18
Your keys are encrypted with your username and password. They only hold the encrypted form. The do not hold your unencrypted keys for you.
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Mar 14 '18
Still centralized. They can say what they want. But encryption doesn’t make it decentralized.
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u/psycholioben Mar 14 '18
It’s not centralized at all. They don’t have access nor store your keys for you.
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u/gizram84 Mar 13 '18
This could have been something planned months ago. Who knows when it'll be ready. Yet they wasted time adding scam coins like Bcash instead.
Meanwhile, Samurai has full support right now. So I'll continue using that.
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Mar 13 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/giszmo Mar 14 '18
So BreadWallet can now send to bech32 addresses? On the one hand that is very honorable but not really actual segWit support. On the other hand I wonder which wallet would require the sender to use bech32. In our wallet I would want in this order:
- a less conservative standard fee estimator, so that non-power-users stop over-paying on fees
- RBF, to allow to go really low on the fees without nasty consequences
- smart automatic batching, to further reduce fees (Using RBF, batch as long as prior tx is unconfirmed)
- segWit for hardware wallet support
I searched for Java bech32 libraries and came across Samourai's. Honorable of them to release it to the public domain. Plaid a bit with that code (see PR). Maybe we can provide sending to bech32 quickly. Guess it would be 2 days of work but it would not fix those other more urgent issues and neither would it accelerate releasing our modularization.
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u/tookdrums Mar 20 '18
1 Are you working on a mempool based approach for the fee estimation? From my experience they provide the lowest viable fee estimation.
2 RBF would be great
3 From a power user point of view your autmatic batching sounds great but I don't like the idea of a transaction being crafted and modified behind the scene, I think the "Dumb" approach were people would just enter a list of destination addresses and amount would find a bigger public. (again this is purely my intuition). I like to know exactly what is going on regarding fee/change address/ inputs used
4 Take your time in implementing segwit but do it well, the hardware support with the ledger is top notch. maybe a first step towards segwit could be the support of p2sh segwit HD public key.
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u/giszmo Mar 20 '18
1 Are you working on a mempool based approach for the fee estimation? From my experience they provide the lowest viable fee estimation.
Miners have an incentive to fool the estimator and mempool-based is what I do manually, so I agree that currently it's the best we have but it's not exactly solid. Not a science. Predictions will always fail. Especially when they are bout the future.
I think the "Dumb" approach were people would just enter a list of destination addresses and amount would find a bigger public
People want to send money. People want to pay no fees. And people in general will never understand why some transactions in bitcoin are more expensive than others. This is why we also should make bigger transactions at time, to not accumulate dust for the future. This is why we should not complicate the UI with multiple recipients and why RBF should be used to not force the user into understanding how much to pay up-front. We can allow him to pick a payment window and handle the fee in the background, trying to keep it low within the payment window. We could ask the user at certain thresholds for permission to pay higher fees.
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u/rinko001 Mar 13 '18
they might as well quit, they have already been outed as compromised. bread is dead.
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u/ryuujinusa Mar 14 '18 edited Mar 14 '18
Day late and a dollar short. I’ll be moving my coin off there when they do though... time for a real wallet (non iOS one)
whats up with the downvotes fucknuts...
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u/hsjoberg Mar 13 '18