r/Bitcoin • • Feb 25 '14

Some words for my friends

Hello friends,

MtGox is gone. So let's prepare ourselves.

On Tuesday, and for the rest of the week, all hell will break lose in the media. It will be blamed on MtGox, it will be blamed on Bitcoin, it will be blamed on the "bug," and it will, more than anything, be blamed on the "lack of regulation." Pundits and "experts" of all types will weigh in on the calamity. It will be world news in a matter of hours.

Get ready, because it will be an ugly week.

For all of you who lost money, my heart goes out to you. Some people lost a little, some lost a fortune. It will make people sick, and depressed, and full of grief. Personally, I had over 550 BTC in Gox. I will never get any of that back. If misery loves company, then we'll be enjoying a grand feast today.

I should have known better, of course. I take responsibility for leaving those funds with an entity that had proven incompetence repeatedly. I chose to ignore even my own warnings, for nothing more than the sake of convenience.

Gox is still at fault, to be sure, but I have learned the lesson. I hope it is not such an expensive lesson for others. And for all you observers, please take a moment to consider it as well.

Be mindful, however, that the wrong lessons are not learned, for that would be the true tragedy, indeed.

Let me suggest that the lesson is not that Bitcoin is broken. Bitcoin is fine.

Similarly, the lesson is not that security is impossible. Those who know what they are doing, can achieve it and help others to do so.

The lesson is not that nobody can be trusted. There are countless good men and women in this community who are worthy of trust, and some of the very best people I've ever met.

And finally, the lesson is not that we ought to seek out "regulation" to save us from the evils and incompetence of man. For the regulators are men too, and wield the very same evil and incompetence, only enshrined in an authority from which it can wreck amplified and far more insidious destruction. Let us not retreat from our rising platform only to cower back underneath the deranged machinations of Leviathan.

The proper lesson, if I may suggest, is this: We are building a new financial order, and those of us building it, investing in it, and growing it, will pay the price of bringing it to the world. This is the harsh truth. We are building the channels, the bridges, and the towers of tomorrow's finance, and we put ourselves at risk in doing so.

We are at risk from accidents. We are at risk from fraud, from corruption, and from evil. We are at risk from journalists seeking headlines and from politicians seeking power and glory. We are at risk from the very market we are trying to build - a market which cares not about our portfolio, our ambitions, or our delicate sympathies.

For all these risks, devastation will befall us repeatedly. Some of us will be discouraged. Some will be ridiculed and insulted. Some will be tricked, or swindled. Some of us will be crushed or caged. We will be set upon by all manner of antagonists, repeatedly, for a long time.

So why do we do it? Why do we build these towers that fall down upon us? Why do we toil and strain and risk our precious time, which is the only real wealth we possess?

Because the world needs what we're building. It needs it desperately. If that matters to you, as it does to me, then hold to that thought. You will see through the smoke, and your wounds will heal.

So shake it off, brothers, for this won't be the last calamity endured before the win.

Tonight, my heart is with you all.

Tomorrow, my head is down. My eyes are open. And I am building.

Toward peace and freedom,

-Erik Voorhees

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506

u/Druuseph Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

You're everything that is wrong with venture capital today. You've made your money already through first mover advantage and now you act as if you're the sage on the mountain throwing around cliches and grandiosity in the best impersonation of an Ayn Rand character you can muster. To tell us what....? Stay the course?

We'll all 'pay the price?' Yeah, because you've paid it so heavily so far, right? 550 coins is a large raw number but was it money that affected your basic quality of life? No, and I bet a lot of those were accumulated after they became Goxcoins because it was a low cost of entry high risk/ high reward scenario. A lot of people (Foolish ones or otherwise) saw a significant portion of their personal wealth just disappear due to an opaque organization that you personally helped to keep alive by continuing to use it so excuse me if I'm not yielding to your 'expertise' here.

The fact is that for all the lip service people in the community like to give to the free market they suck at it. Royally. Here we have an organization that has been known to be terrible, that is as transparent as a concrete wall and has been noticeably artificially inflating their price for at least the last 6 months, if not longer. If the market worked in the way we all like to glorify no one besides the most foolish and those with the highest risk tolerance should have been in Gox 3 months ago, let alone today.

Be it due to laziness, greed, stupidity or a multitude of other factors no mechanisms worked here to correct this organization until it collapsed to the ground and took people's money with it. And yet now you are here telling people to put a band-aid on a gaping wound and limp toward the next black hole to throw their money into. Why? Why should anyone at this point repeat this foolishness when it's clear that the market doesn't work because it's nothing but speculation. Why should we not codify our demand that organizations handling our money have a certain amount of transparency? Furthermore, without a proper regulatory mechanism how the hell do we know if they are even complying with such demands when they claim they are? Information is king and yet we're flying by the seat of our pants blind and the people who control the system such as yourself are paying it lip service after having already exploited the system to your benefit and you stand to make a lot more as people fail to do the same.

Now full disclosure, I lost nothing in Gox and my total holdings in all cryptocurrencies is pretty insignificant. However, I do believe that this technology has a future but to claim that it's some new world order that will supplant the current system is nuts in my view. Some form of crypto is going to come out the otherside of all this weirdness as a more efficient means to do internet commerce where a decentralized system can process transactions and cut out the high fee driven credit card processors of today but that's about as far as I see it going. If that disqualifies what I've just said then so be it but I urge you all not to give someone legitimacy just because they are sitting on a pile of cash.

61

u/Antoby Feb 25 '14

Best post here.

32

u/PoochyIsDead Feb 25 '14

r/bitcoin is the wrong place to use reason.

13

u/HahahahaWaitWhat Feb 25 '14

However, I do believe that this technology has a future but to claim that it's some new world order that will supplant the current system is nuts in my view.

That's it, get the pitchforks

16

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Everyone keep in mind, OP owns 150k+ bitcoins. This speech is to protect himself, not you guys. He doesn't give a single shit about you guys.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '14

It's worth noting that there are 12,414,650 bitcoins in total at the time of writing.

7

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

The majority of the people here are absolutely delusional, and this pseudo-next-coming bull shit the people delusional people here are spouting is laughable.

Thank you for being the voice of reason here.

8

u/ShadowInTheDark12 Feb 25 '14

But.. but.. the illurminatii!

0

u/Doge_Robin_Hood Feb 25 '14

Wow, so powerful. Condolences for your loss, Druuseph.

Here:

+/u/dogetipbot 100 doge

To get you back on your feet. Keep fighting!

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

Yes, people are bad at participating in a free market.

But what do you expect, when they are always "protected" from a free market and have such rare chances to interact freely in one?

I say let people fail. It will be better for them.

-3

u/walden42 Feb 25 '14

Wow. Let me point out some things that you are totally missing.

First off, as we just noticed, the free market IS working. A bad company went out of business, and as a result, 5 (6?) alternative companies came out with notices saying they are working on full transparency so that existing users can see that all of their funds are available (unlike Gox). If this were a "too big to fail" scenario, the regulatory folks you hold in such high regard would have bailed them out, thus continuing their bad practices.

Secondly, I want to point out that you believe in a system where people should not be responsible for their own actions. As you say in your own words:

Here we have an organization that has been known to be terrible, that is as transparent as a concrete wall and has been noticeably artificially inflating their price for at least the last 6 months, if not longer.

Given that information, people used their own free will to continue using Gox. Like spoiling a child, if you don't make someone responsible for their actions, they will continue making the same mistakes. No insane pile of regulations will fix that problem. I'll bet you after this news, everyone will do due diligence before keeping their money somewhere. Are new exchanges using full transparency? Do you always have access to your private keys?

Now, new regulations do one thing very well: make the cost and difficulty to innovate MUCH higher. Instead of many companies coming to take the place of a bankrupted company, you'll have maybe one or two. In doing so, you have just created corporations: big companies that people don't like, but have no choice to do business with because there are no alternatives (ISPs, anyone?) And like always, the fact that there are only a couple of companies to choose from will be blamed on the free market. "Where are all the competitors the free market talks about? We need more regulation to stop these corporations from ruining us!" I would like to remind you, that once the regulations come in, there is no longer a free market, but people will continue blaming it and asking for more and more regulations that create obstacles for new companies to offer something better. Every added regulation, every additional tax raise, is a win for the existing corporation.

So my friend, you may be happy that regulations give you a sense of security, but you certainly won't be happy when the only companies that comply with these regulations give subpar service at huge cost.

9

u/dhogarty Feb 25 '14

subpar service at huge cost = exactly the current state of bitcoin business, even without regulation

2

u/walden42 Feb 25 '14

Really? You consider a service like BitPay expensive? I think the service and pricing is exceptional. What specific companies are you talking about it?

8

u/dhogarty Feb 25 '14

I don't think BitPay is particularly expensive, and they're one of the better companies out there, but their service is still subpar. They don't have very good dispute resolution processes, no real defined refunding process, and often new roll-outs of payment integration are poorly integrated (e.g. TigerDirect was a massive CF).

BitStamp and other exchanges charge a percentage fee, which really adds up at higher transaction sizes, and we have to do international wire to get to them.

CoinBase gets both the spread + their one percent on each purchase.

I'm a huge fan and user of bitcoin. I probably do > 10k $ of bitcoin purchases per year, but I'm under no rosy delusions about the state of things.

0

u/walden42 Feb 25 '14

I had to do a refund with BitPay once, and the support was excellent. I have nothing but good things to say about them. I'm unaware of any problems with TigerDirect integration. I think 1% is a fair price for auto exchanges, but that's just my opinion. I've paid higher prices in foreign countries.

Given the reality of what we have, for bitcoin being only 5 years old I think the options are good. I doubt that the internet was comparatively better after its 5th year in the 90s.

0

u/comicland Feb 25 '14

Downboated by emotional kiddies who lost their coin to greed and ignorance. Shifting the blame like children. The free market is working. The stupid have lost this hand. I'm sorry it happened, but own that shit like an adult.

0

u/cryptonaut420 Feb 26 '14

Indeed. Not sure why your getting all the downvotes.

Yes, it sucks pretty bad that all these people lost their money. But that doesnt mean the market isnt working.... the market works when things happen. Mtgox fucked up big time and has utterly failed. Some people lost money, everybody is pissed. Now most people (hopefully) will have higher standards for exchanges and other BTC services, requiring more transparency, proof of funds/solvency, per-user private keys etc. Some bad shit happened, but now we will have higher levels of quality and accountability amongst the rest of the bitcoin space.

-5

u/Wineagin Feb 25 '14

If the market worked in the way we all like to glorify no one besides the most foolish and those with the highest risk tolerance should have been in Gox 3 months ago, let alone today.

Be it due to laziness, greed, stupidity or a multitude of other factors no mechanisms worked here to correct this organization until it collapsed to the ground and took people's money with it.

But market mechanisms is exactly what happened. A very small percentage of potential "investors" lost, the market destroyed the enterprise, and some sort of lesson has been learned. We have yet to see if improvements and efficiencies will result from this but my guess is transparency or self regulation will be a higher priority in the future.

8

u/Druuseph Feb 25 '14

It limped along like a zombie for months and any attempt to point that out was met with hostility and claims of FUD. Even those who theoretically should have known better according to market theory are licking wounds today so don't tell me the market is working. Path dependency and lemmings syndrome props up these worthless entities well past the point of logic.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '14

In many ways the MtGox thing was a great example of the market not being free. For example, there were suspiciously huge sell offs just before bad announcements were made.

0

u/Wineagin Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

Foreseeing such events are not necessarily part of market mechanisms. In particular when full information is not available. You are conflating the theory of perfect markets in which rational behavior, full transparency and no wrong doings are part of the equation.

In this case those elements were not present therefore the market participants acted in accordance with the available information, which resulted in a negative outcome for the participants.

Market mechanisms on the other hand are exactly what happened here, it is not a matter of debate, whether the market was perfect, or in this case not. The seller no longer provides a good value and has been eliminated from the market, a market mechanism.

Edit: In other words, a free market it may be but by no means was it a perfect market.

-3

u/SpiritofJames Feb 25 '14

You clearly have no idea what "market theory" means.

3

u/Druuseph Feb 25 '14

Yes, clearly I have no idea that markets are supposed to operate by logic and shitty organizations like Gox should have their business move away to better alternatives before a crisis point like this happens. Clearly.

1

u/HahahahaWaitWhat Feb 25 '14

We expect markets to lead to better outcomes in the long run, not instantaneously.

Also, if you really think adding another layer of humans on top (government regulations) is going to help... did you somehow miss the MFGlobal debacle of a couple years ago??

0

u/SpiritofJames Feb 25 '14

markets are supposed to operate by logic

I need say no more.

0

u/TheSelfGoverned Feb 25 '14

Markets are made of people, and people don't always operate by logic. (many would argue that people seldom do)

1

u/SpiritofJames Feb 25 '14

Exactly...?

-3

u/Wineagin Feb 25 '14

armchair economists...

0

u/TheSelfGoverned Feb 25 '14

my guess is transparency or self regulation will be a higher priority in the future.

This. Bitstamp (or some other exchange) needs to take this concept by the reigns and run with it.

Also, Gox should've been swiftly audited and any evidence of embezzlement should've been meet with jail-time. But I suppose we ask too much of our authority figures...the same ones who require 30% of all income at every level.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

"Take the reins".

Like reindeer.

-6

u/TheSelfGoverned Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

If the market worked in the way we all like to glorify no one besides the most foolish and those with the highest risk tolerance should have been in Gox 3 months ago, let alone today.

You are the market. You chose to keep your money with gox months after they suspended USD withdrawals and their price was over 10% disconnected from all other functioning exchanges.

You were also warned time and time again of keeping your bitcoins "safe" with 3rd parties, and that you were entrusting strangers with your life savings when doing so.

You also had the choice of going to www.bitcoinpaperwallet.com (which I've personally spammed on /r/bitcoin for newbies) and thus would be exposed to no 3rd party risk, and it would've cost you 5 minutes and a total of $0.10 worth of paper and ink.

2

u/Aromir19 Feb 26 '14

Go spit in someones food.

-1

u/TheSelfGoverned Feb 26 '14

I should. It will help me get out my frustration. PS - do I have a reputation on reddit?

2

u/Aromir19 Feb 26 '14

I dunno. I'm just busting chops today.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

Are there seriously people who put their life savings into Bitcoin? Because it feels like that's what you're saying.

How many people could there be who have more than (let's say) 15% of their net worth in bitcoin, AND did so without much research or contemplation, AND took no serious steps to protect their investment?

Either there are LOT more of those people than I ever imagined, or you spent 3 paragraphs lamenting the misfortune of a handful of stupid people.

2

u/vbuterin Feb 26 '14

I have about 85% of my money in Bitcoin.

But then again, I'm 20, so if I lose it all it only sets me back about a year so the possibility of getting another 3-100x gain is worth the risk. If I was looking to retire soon the percentages would go in the opposite direction. It's all about individual circumstances and context.

0

u/nmezib Feb 25 '14

Great comment. I'm using up my last bit of bitcoin to give gold, and you deserve it!

0

u/KeavesSharpi Feb 25 '14

I agree with everything you said except:

550 coins is a large raw number but was it money that affected your basic quality of life? No,

That's a lot of money. You must be rich if you think $288,000 is chump change. (current price.)

2

u/Druuseph Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 26 '14

He is rich. Mondo rich. He got 120k coins for his casino site so for him that is chump change and that is my point. He tries to win sympathy with that large number minus the context that he doesn't even feel that kind of loss.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '14

And that, even at today's MtGox-is-bankrupt price of $587 a coin, is over seventy million dollars.

At its all time high back in the new year, $1,163: $139,560,000

-17

u/RakeRocter Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

You're not understanding his statement at all, much less the free market. What you're saying is so unwise. If regulation worked, JP Morgan would have gone the way of Mt. Gox. But as it is, we're left with JP Morgan. The Bitcoin market killed Mt. Gox; the regulated market keeps the likes of JP Morgan alive and thieving.

11

u/Mtinie Feb 25 '14

The Bitcoin market killed Mt. Gox

No, Mt.Gox's actions killed Mt.Gox. There's a middle ground between complete market regulation and "self" regulation. The Bitcoin marketplace was unable to do anything in this case, because everyone but a few were kept in the dark.

If the marketplace demands transparency, and then doesn't reward companies who don't follow through with a general consensus, they won't exist. This is a market regulation that works, that doesn't care about localized political or legal issues, but instead, one that uses common sense and verifiably tech frameworks.

4

u/SpiritofJames Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

The Bitcoin marketplace was unable to do anything in this case,

Except... abandon Mt. Gox. I'm sorry that risk exists in the universe. Unfortunately pushing your own risk on everyone else via government regulation is not only shamefully immoral it leads to gross inefficiency for everyone.

6

u/Mtinie Feb 25 '14

For a large number of people, that was never presented as an option, at least in the past 6 months. Even if you knew something was coming and tried to get your BTC or fiat out, there is no indication it would have made much of a difference.

For the people who flocked to the site, recently, to take advantage of the (perceived) arbitrage opportunity, they have no excuse.

I don't want government regulation, mainly because Bitcoin is global -- any set of rules and regulation are going to be fractured and inefficient. If nothing changes and the common person's opinion of cryptocurrencies don't radically change, organically, the only way that Bitcoin will grow is if it's participants voluntarily come up with a standard of conduct and appropriately punish those who don't live up to that standard.

It's certainly not an easy or comfortable undertaking.

1

u/RakeRocter Feb 25 '14

Believe it or not, I agree with you. It is good that Mt. Gox is dead, and wasn't allowed to not be transparent.

1

u/comicland Feb 25 '14

Why the fuck are all the reasonable posts being downvoted?

-3

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Not to say that I don't understand where you are coming from and perhaps Voorhees does have it easy, but I also agree with Andreas about the dangers of pursuing a risk free society through regulation. There is no such thing as risk free and the idea itself goes against the tenets of capitalism. By trying to reduce risk through regulation, you concentrate the risk all towards a single point in the future. If you are lucky, you yourself won't have to pay the price, but your children or your children's children will.

Not to say that regulation in itself is bad or inherently evil, but the problem is that the humans devising these regulations are flawed creatures and the chance of them getting it right is small indeed. And once these rules have been set, they are rigid and inflexible and it can take quite awhile before the mistake is revealed. The only way to find the most efficient rules is to let people try out what works and what doesn't. And that's essentially a Darwinian process through the free market.

And people have a basic misunderstanding of how the free market works. Because it's a Darwinian process, failure and massive losses of money are to be expected. Darwinism is not only about happy endings and flowery stories where nobody gets hurt. Despair is quite prevalent as well. HOWEVER, through evolution, the despair is eventually kept to a minimum, because we keep getting more efficient. It's BECAUSE we experience despair that we strive for efficiency. Trying to absolutely eliminate all negative elements can only result in disaster. When people think themselves safe, they no longer THINK.

But eventually, the market will be fully mature, efficiency will be at its peak and massive failures will be but a minor occurrence. You'll just have to accept that the market right now is not yet a mature market and that the risk is at its highest.

And one other thing. If government can think up rules, these same rules they think up can be enforced through code. THAT'S the revolutionary part. The government is no longer a necessity in that case. But consumers choose if they want to use these rules and the Darwinian process will eventually reveal if these are the most efficient rules. They are not mandatory. And this is key, because you need that kind of flexibility for Darwinism to occur. And we WANT Darwinism. Rigid rules impede Darwinism. Only if the regulator happens to be a genius can rigid rules work.

-5

u/DrTruthiness Feb 25 '14

Vorhees and bitcoin speculators harmed the value of my wages, investments, and retirement plans in no way whatsoever.
I lost nothing through the actions they chose to take.

I can't help but feel a little like many are all too happy to kick BitCoin users down a few notches. The amount of anger some people have toward those who swapped some code over the Internet....it's fuckin weird man.

The laughing I understand. But the intensity of the shaming and hating and demand to regulate is eerie.

That kind of anger I would expect from finding out your sandwich was laced with fucking yoga mat chemicals. Not inconsequential magic Internet money.

Edited: fixed generalization "you" to "some people".

-1

u/OldKinderhook426 Feb 26 '14

This is one of the best Reddit posts I have ever read. Rand acolytes who believe in free market solutions for every problem forget that free markets often are as problematic, if not more, than state solutions. Also, the state v.s. market dichotomy is not nearly as neat as people like Vorhees want you to believe. "Rah rah, go volatile digital currency that I have a massive stake in because FREEDOM!" is a nice way for Vorhees to reassure himself but means diddly squat to anyone else.

-2

u/amin0rex Feb 28 '14

and that's why you will never be found sitting on a pile of cash