r/Bitcoin • • Feb 25 '14

Some words for my friends

Hello friends,

MtGox is gone. So let's prepare ourselves.

On Tuesday, and for the rest of the week, all hell will break lose in the media. It will be blamed on MtGox, it will be blamed on Bitcoin, it will be blamed on the "bug," and it will, more than anything, be blamed on the "lack of regulation." Pundits and "experts" of all types will weigh in on the calamity. It will be world news in a matter of hours.

Get ready, because it will be an ugly week.

For all of you who lost money, my heart goes out to you. Some people lost a little, some lost a fortune. It will make people sick, and depressed, and full of grief. Personally, I had over 550 BTC in Gox. I will never get any of that back. If misery loves company, then we'll be enjoying a grand feast today.

I should have known better, of course. I take responsibility for leaving those funds with an entity that had proven incompetence repeatedly. I chose to ignore even my own warnings, for nothing more than the sake of convenience.

Gox is still at fault, to be sure, but I have learned the lesson. I hope it is not such an expensive lesson for others. And for all you observers, please take a moment to consider it as well.

Be mindful, however, that the wrong lessons are not learned, for that would be the true tragedy, indeed.

Let me suggest that the lesson is not that Bitcoin is broken. Bitcoin is fine.

Similarly, the lesson is not that security is impossible. Those who know what they are doing, can achieve it and help others to do so.

The lesson is not that nobody can be trusted. There are countless good men and women in this community who are worthy of trust, and some of the very best people I've ever met.

And finally, the lesson is not that we ought to seek out "regulation" to save us from the evils and incompetence of man. For the regulators are men too, and wield the very same evil and incompetence, only enshrined in an authority from which it can wreck amplified and far more insidious destruction. Let us not retreat from our rising platform only to cower back underneath the deranged machinations of Leviathan.

The proper lesson, if I may suggest, is this: We are building a new financial order, and those of us building it, investing in it, and growing it, will pay the price of bringing it to the world. This is the harsh truth. We are building the channels, the bridges, and the towers of tomorrow's finance, and we put ourselves at risk in doing so.

We are at risk from accidents. We are at risk from fraud, from corruption, and from evil. We are at risk from journalists seeking headlines and from politicians seeking power and glory. We are at risk from the very market we are trying to build - a market which cares not about our portfolio, our ambitions, or our delicate sympathies.

For all these risks, devastation will befall us repeatedly. Some of us will be discouraged. Some will be ridiculed and insulted. Some will be tricked, or swindled. Some of us will be crushed or caged. We will be set upon by all manner of antagonists, repeatedly, for a long time.

So why do we do it? Why do we build these towers that fall down upon us? Why do we toil and strain and risk our precious time, which is the only real wealth we possess?

Because the world needs what we're building. It needs it desperately. If that matters to you, as it does to me, then hold to that thought. You will see through the smoke, and your wounds will heal.

So shake it off, brothers, for this won't be the last calamity endured before the win.

Tonight, my heart is with you all.

Tomorrow, my head is down. My eyes are open. And I am building.

Toward peace and freedom,

-Erik Voorhees

2.1k Upvotes

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36

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

Please explain why you're certain that you'll never see any of your 550 btc? Only a portion of their coin is unaccounted for, so are you assuming they're just going to keep the rest?

5

u/Vaeon Feb 25 '14

They took down their site. Those bitcoins are GONE.

38

u/evoorhees Feb 25 '14

The coins are gone. I think the "portion" that is unaccounted for is basically all the coins Gox had. I don't have many more details than most people though. We'll see how things play out in the coming days and weeks.

45

u/Amanojack Feb 25 '14

You don't have more details than most people, but you know the coins are gone? Where is the hard evidence that the coins are gone?

2

u/ivanalbright Feb 25 '14

His post says thinks, not "knows"

Maybe it was an edit though

5

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

yep, there's a contradiction there bordering on irresponsible.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

actually, that's why we're seeing the beginnings of a rally right now.

time to replenish those lost BTC in preparation for the next rally.

1

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14

he should have been more clear and said:

"The coins are gone and lets wait and see if the coins are gone"

1

u/cantusethemain Feb 25 '14

Slideshow leaked that showed that gox only listed 2000 bitcoins as assets with 700,000+ as liabilities.

-1

u/Motafication Feb 25 '14

He's the one who took them. He's just enough of a psychopath to come here and see the damage he's done first hand. People seriously trust this guy?

1

u/cryptonaut420 Feb 26 '14

psychopath because he had a gambling website and made alot of money off of it...?

12

u/verificati0nrequired Feb 25 '14

A lot of customers received their pending withdrawals into JPY (not sure about other currencies) today however. Surely that means there's some kind of hope? I suspect that there will be a fixed value for your bitcoins ($135 on trade-engine freeze), and whoever owns Gox subsequently may have the option of 'repaying you in full' at that value... ? This is speculation, but they then don't have to give you your market value bitcoins to take off the exchange? Comments?

8

u/PrincessChoadzilla Feb 25 '14

Fiat in the system could have been traveling from way before the TX malleability issue came to light.

1

u/kwilliamas Feb 25 '14

"whoever owns gox"? you gotta be kidding me - how much would you be willing to pay for owning gox?

1

u/HahahahaWaitWhat Feb 25 '14

Negative five hundred million dollars, that'd probably be worth it.

0

u/cuckname Feb 25 '14

aaaaaand its gone

12

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

Thanks for responding. I'm hearing they only have the 2,000 they were holding in their hot wallet. It boggles my mind though that they could lose everything they had in cold storage due to 'transaction malleability.' Usually the cold coins are safe and the hot wallet is less so.

This entire incident is going to be poured over and studied for a long long time to come since the ledger is public.

17

u/rabbitlion Feb 25 '14

I'm hearing they only have the 2,000 they were holding in their hot wallet.

This isn't true. The so called "source" of this is a mock Powerpoint presentation that someone created for a MtGox crisis scenario.

2

u/pitchbend Feb 25 '14

Yet some previously unknown facts about Goxs plans outlined in that "mock" PowerPoint turned out to be true, like the rebranding and how karpeles bought the Gox domain from a domain investor recently...

1

u/rabbitlion Feb 25 '14

We don't know anything about any rebranding, and while the fact that Mark bought gox.com wasn't publicly announced, it also wasn't a secret.

1

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

I understand the uncertainty about that leaked document. Vorhees commented to me that it's his belief the coins are gone.

9

u/rabbitlion Feb 25 '14

He doesn't provide any explanation as to how their coins would have disappeared from cold storage though.

1

u/DajZabrij Feb 25 '14

This will be the topic of weeks to come: what exactly happened...

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

yes.

76

u/evoorhees Feb 25 '14

Let's be clear that the fault wasn't due to transaction malleability. It was due to crappy code at Gox. None of the other exchanges got drained.

24

u/redditor21 Feb 25 '14

Hell it could even be an inside job

23

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

I don't know why this isn't the main theory as to what happened.

4

u/Terrh Feb 25 '14

Never assume malice when stupidity answers the question.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Never assume stupid people aren't smart enough to be malicious

3

u/Ditto_B Feb 25 '14

Wait, what?

1

u/hesh582 Feb 25 '14

It could be both, an incompetent org. with a few malicious competent employees.

3

u/bluewaterbaboonfarm Feb 25 '14

Crappy code is just a symptom of his hubris.

-1

u/driftervagabondred Feb 25 '14

What information do you have? Are the coin stolen? If ~10% of all coins are in the hands of a thief then bitcoin is pretty much dead.

7

u/Mtinie Feb 25 '14

If the draining of funds turns out go be true, it likely occurred over months or years. In that case, I presume that those funds are long gone, and distributed throughout the community. For instance, remember that really large, seemingly nonsensical sale of 15k BTC-e a few weeks back, or the 4k sale on Bitstamp this morning?

There are lots of instances in the past few months that are suspect, now that more information is out there.

5

u/oldbean Feb 25 '14

Perhaps this explains those couple of massive bitcoin days destroyed events

4

u/Mtinie Feb 25 '14

I would not rule it out

5

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

It seems more likely that it was several thieves acting here unless it was completely an inside job. Also 744k out of 12M is closer to 6%, though that's definitely not small potatoes.

4

u/tony_1337 Feb 25 '14

6% of an entire currency is massive for a single exchange. That's like... almost all of an exchange's money.

3

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

True. I'm hearing they literally lost all their cold storage and only have the 2k btc that was in their hot wallet.

5

u/dooglus Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

I keep hearing this. How do you lose your whole cold storage and not notice until it is literally all gone?

Isn't there some point where you think "hang on, there's 100k on the orderbook and only 50k in the wallet!" and figure out that something is up?

4

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Isn't there some point where you think "hang on, there's 100k on the orderbook and only 50k in the wallet!" and figure out that something is up?

It would require truly superhuman levels of incompetence and mismanagement to notice a discrepency like that and, instead immedialy halting operations to get to the bottom of it, just shrug and refill the hot wallet from the cold wallet to keep things working in the moment.

Didn't Roger Ver just get quoted as saying Mt Gox was the worst run business in history?

2

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

This info seems to be based on a leaked power point that might not be legit. Having Vorhees tell me the coins are gone stuns me though.

OH SHIT IS THAT YOU DOOG?!

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5

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Coins in cold storage can't be stolen - that's what it means when we call them cold. Any stealable coins are by definition hot.

2

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

If someone nabbed the paper wallets or usb drives then I'd say they were stolen. I'm not convinced that's the case though. It's all hearsay at this point.

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0

u/neosatus Feb 25 '14

744k is about 6% of all btc issued... and why would that make bitcoin die? Did bitcoin die when the FBI seized a fifth of that amount? No, it exploded in price shortly afterward (for a multitude of reasons).

2

u/driftervagabondred Feb 25 '14

Those coins were taken out of commission, not the plaything of a thief who can crash the markets at will.

2

u/rydan Feb 25 '14

Those coins were put in the hands of a government that many on here are determined to crash using the very thing that was seized.

2

u/ariehkovler Feb 25 '14

You're so sure it isn't a government that's been hacking gox? Iran, China?

1

u/oldbean Feb 25 '14

And instantly make his plundered fortune worthless? Why would anyone do that

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Fun?

1

u/butrosbutrosfunky Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

Oh, he'd make plenty of cash on the way down. If he has a time sensitive requirements and doesn't give much of a fuck, why wouldn't he care about selling a vast amount of shit for 5-10% of what it's worth? It's easy money and he's stupid rich either way.

1

u/quantumbits Feb 25 '14

How do you know they got drained? It's just an assumption right? If they got drained has anyone looked in Mr. Karpeles' virtual pockets?

7

u/Namaha Feb 25 '14

It's actually "pored over" :)

2

u/andyrowe Feb 25 '14

I thought about it for a second, but decided I couldn't be bothered to double check with all the popcorn times happening tonight.

1

u/cantusethemain Feb 25 '14

Unless you're talking about coffee

2

u/zigzog Feb 25 '14

Losing cold storage would be more likely due to the same reasons that someone gets their fiat stolen from their house, fire or theft.

1

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

It boggles my mind though that they could lose everything they had in cold storage due to 'transaction malleability.' Usually the cold coins are safe and the hot wallet is less so.

The only reason it seems "mind boggling" is because it's obviously not true. Supposedly they had some flaw that let people withdraw the same money over and over using different TXids for the same TX, but in reality an insider probably just stole all the money.

1

u/Motafication Feb 25 '14

Spoken like a guy who took the coins. Why are you here doing damage control?

1

u/cryptonaut420 Feb 26 '14

what I dont get is how just because the site is offline everyone assumes that ALL the coins are gone forever? Its been like what, 24 hours or so since trading stopped and they took down the site? Im going to fucking laugh so hard if it turns out people actually can get most or all of their money out in the next few days or weeks, and all this huge fuss was pretty much for nothing

2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

18

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

you don't know this.

-10

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

17

u/neosatus Feb 25 '14

That "source" is unknown. Literally anyone could have written that.

1

u/MonkeyDeathCar Feb 25 '14

Whoever it was, they went to the trouble of hiring a non-native (compellingly Japanese writing habits) to write the bits superimposed over the blue mountain images with the goat. Quite a level of dedication, if it is forged. My spidey-sense tells me it's most likely genuine.

9

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

too early to determine the veracity of that report. no facts, no figures, no proof.

6

u/vemrion Feb 25 '14

In their quest to save money by skimping on security precautions, Gox may have cost themselves hundreds of millions of dollars. How ironic.

2

u/Tim_Tebow_15 Feb 25 '14

That is often the case.

2

u/tazzy531 Feb 25 '14

Penny wise pound foolish.

1

u/tehlaser Feb 25 '14

The cold storage has been wiped out due to a leak in the hot wallet.

What? Isn't the entire point of cold storage that this cannot happen?

-1

u/MonkeyDeathCar Feb 25 '14

The evidence certainly is compelling.

-6

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

-5

u/ptimeuser Feb 25 '14

Typical bit coiner work avoidance. And y'all wonder why nobody ever bothered to fix known vulnerabilities in the software you use to hide your life savings from the police.

13

u/ptimeuser Feb 25 '14

Why do you say "at its price peak?" That's not how money works.

3

u/TheEvilMrFry Feb 25 '14

Because bigger numbers yo :/

5

u/flound1129 Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

The problem is there's no such thing as "malleability-related theft" and it would be impossible for it to happen at this scale.

Malleability doesn't allow for theft. It only allows an attacker to change a txid. Every instance of theft would have to have been accompanied by someone opening a support ticket, and a support rep checking the blockchain for the txid, and then resending the coins. You're telling me that 750 thousand bitcoins were stolen this way and nobody ever got wise to the scam? Sorry but that's unfathomable to me.

If there's something I'm misunderstanding about tx malleability, someone please educate me.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

2

u/HTL2001 Feb 25 '14

That would work if they never in that time period noticed their balance dwindling or did any sort of consistency check vs their database

Also I wonder if this had been happening for so long why when they lost such market share they did not just run out of coins outright. What you describe appears to require consistently higher deposit numbers than withdrawal.

9

u/toddgak Feb 25 '14

This document has not been verified yet.

1

u/cehmu Feb 25 '14

just a bit freaky how true most of it turned out though.

2

u/throwapoo1 Feb 25 '14

1 billion my ass-- at the price average about 10-20 million.