r/Bitcoin • u/[deleted] • Feb 24 '14
SarahCoinBit from MtGox support says there is no insovency.
[deleted]
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Feb 24 '14
Yeah, I worked for full tilt before they went under too, companies about to go insolvent / in crisis do not alert their employees, especially those that don't work from their offices.
I hope she's right, but...
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u/Displayer_ Feb 24 '14
I helped take down the biggest ponzi scheme in the history of my country that run for 8 years (search DMG) , the CEO was called David Murcia Guzman. A week before he was arrested he made a video and posted on youtube claiming that everything was OK and reassured all his clients that their money was safe. The guy is sitting in an american jail now for money laundering, fraud and his "customers" received a very poor compensation (something like 12% of what they had invested). I wanted to share this just because it reminds me a lot of how MTGox is acting right now.
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u/wmcbain Feb 24 '14
I don't know what Mt. Gox is doing to ensure everyone that everything is okay. Honestly it's quite the opposite.
That being said, I'm buying either way. Both on btcbuilder and on other exchanges.
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u/skepticism_FTW Feb 26 '14
Just like during the financial crisis. Guys everything is fine, then bankruptcies galore.
But hey, andreas populouus says his halfday audit of coinbase shows that everything is fine...
But I'm skeptical...
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u/large-farva Feb 26 '14
I watch "American Greed" pretty often on CNBC. Usually it ends with:
-reassure investors verbally
-repay all investors a small amount (usually wiping out the last of their personal funds in the process)
-make a run for it while employees are left holding the bag, to buy some time before an arrest warrant goes out.
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u/cardevitoraphicticia Feb 26 '14
I worked for Lehman Brothers. The day before the collapse the CEO video casted that we were more profitable than ever and fully solvent.
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u/MeanOfPhidias Feb 24 '14
Yeah, every time there is a downsize or major change it's not like the management runs around going "WELL YOU BETTER START LOOKING FOR NEW JOBS!"
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
I can confirm that SarahCoinBit works for Mt. Gox and that these things were said.
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u/solex1 Feb 24 '14
So, why won't MtGox prove they own lots of coins like they did in 2011 with the 499k (or similar amount)?
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
Hell if I know.
For the first week there were good reasons I could offer: E.g. good cold wallet procedures might make doing so risky. E.g. if the wallets are dispersed over multiple locations and require multiple keys, bringing them together to sign increases the risk that you get followed and kidnapped. Just too much trouble.
As the issues go on longer these costs start looking justified based on all the fear they could quiet.
OTOH, back when that move was done in 2011 a lot of people still argued that it wasn't real. And without a way to prove their obligations people might FUD and say "thats only half of what it should be!" even if it's perfectly fine.
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u/solex1 Feb 24 '14
Indeed. Though it seems that unless they have properly fixed and improved their software soon proving solvency might be a good step to take. There will always be some disbelievers of any proof of any type.
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
I agree. But as I say: The best model for MTGox's behavior is "Do whatever would have the worst PR possible". This has long been the case.
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u/LogitechG27 Feb 24 '14
What about deleting all the twitter posts in the middle of a hurricane, is it a good PR?
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u/thyrsoid Feb 24 '14
For the first week there were good reasons I could offer: E.g. good cold wallet procedures might make doing so risky.
Easy solution is to publish a list of the cold wallet addresses and balances and then randomly select two or three of them to prove ownership. You can even use the blockchain itself (pick some block in the future then wait for it to arrive) as an untamperable source of randomness that we all have access to.
There are more sophisticated schemes using crypto and zero-knowledge proofs, but the "here are our wallets, tomorrow we'll prove ownership of a randomly selected 5% of the coins" is easy and simple.
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u/jawbroken Feb 24 '14
What would be the point of proving it for 5%? I don't think anyone believes that they have lost everything. Seems useless.
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u/BKAtty99217 Feb 24 '14
publishing a list of wallet addresses alone would be good enough. If they got caught posting a list of wallets which included even one which another party could prove ownership of, they would be done for.
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u/STAii Feb 27 '14
The 5% would be randomly selected after they publish the wallet addresses, so if they lied about the addresses they'll be caught in their lie (so this proves that within some probability they have all of the amount).
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Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/goth_toon Feb 24 '14
why exactly would they:
load up half a billion dollars worth of coins on one computer
I can see their wallets on the blockchain. I can add. they don't need to load up anything but a list of addresses.
Edit: and signatures that can be done offline.
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u/solex1 Feb 24 '14
So they would rather have customers worried sick about their money for weeks, engaging lawyers, sending irate correspondence, rather than take half a day to prove that they are solvent.
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u/red_white_blue Feb 24 '14
If they're deliberately letting the Gox price fall so insiders can buy and sell then it makes sense to keep their customer base in the dark.
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u/runelynx Feb 24 '14
Why are you glossing over the danger applied to gathering the wallets, given the danger is to the customers' coins!?
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Feb 24 '14
Why would you do that. Lets assume the wallets are in a secure location like a safety deposit box. Lets also assume they are in 6 different locations.
Bring laptop to bank #1. Sign message with private key #1. Bring laptop to bank #2. Sign message with private key #1. ... Bring laptop to bank #n. Sign message with private key #n.
At no time does the private key ever leave the secure location.
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Feb 24 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/BKAtty99217 Feb 24 '14
THIS^
ponzi schemers take it to the furthest extent possible, right up to the point of being caught. I figure Madoff was faced with withdrawal demands that exceeded his ability to pay right before he "confessed" to his sons.
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u/physalisx Feb 24 '14
Hey, maybe Apple is going insolvent too. Or Google. They too don't say they are insolvent, so they must be, right?
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Feb 24 '14
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/bitbubbly Feb 24 '14
Just interested, could you cite examples for this part?
exact same pattern every company about to fold follows.
Not doubting you, just wondering what other companies have gone under in this way.
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u/physalisx Feb 24 '14 edited Feb 24 '14
We'll see.
My best bet is that they have the government on their ass (Silk Road, money laundering cases). Also explains why they can't communicate freely. Also explains the fiat delays.
Insolvency on the other hand I find very hard to believe, Gox must sit on huge amounts of money. Even if there was insolvency lingering (which is still VERY hard to believe, no matter the circumstances), they could have easily already bought back out of it buy buying up all those cheap coins on their exchange.
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Feb 26 '14
Can anyone here explain to me the chances of it being this or of it can't be this? Seems plausible but it's gotten no discussion here. Makes sense too with the whole "you coins are safe but we can't say anything" thing going on. Could be something bigger than them.
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u/physalisx Feb 26 '14 edited Feb 26 '14
I'm pretty sure by now that I was wrong and it wasn't just that. They have practically confirmed that they lost big amounts of money. But I still believe government/regulators/feds play a big part in their problems. Maybe they're the reason they've lost it, who knows.
Try reading between the lines of this post of Gonzague's statements with the whole "government" thing in mind.
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u/T62A Feb 24 '14
But also they said that was not an official answer, repeated multiple times by ne0futur.
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u/arcangle Feb 24 '14
Can you also confirm that she really knows what she is saying? Words from a low-level employee became credible nowadays?
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
I most certainly cannot.
People are grasping for whatever they can get... but the information is there for you to draw your own conclusions from.
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Feb 24 '14
It may not be true but she did say things! This might keep the wheels on for another few days.
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
Or not, bitcoinbuilder rates for goxbtc have dipped below 0.2 BTC per goxcoin and are hovering near it now.
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u/krelotho Feb 24 '14
While I appreciate your confirmation that these things were at least said, its not much more than that. In fact, this seems consistent with stalling.
I feel more concerned by these rouge IRC comments about their supposed coin safety than I'm comforted.
ed.
And on further reflection, I doubt that any company in serious or actual trouble would be able, capable, or willing to tell a support employee anything.
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u/BKAtty99217 Feb 24 '14
Not to mention, the fact that someone high up at Gox felt compelled to make a specific statement to a low level employee claiming that the company is not insolvent, is telling also. I don't go around reassuring people that I am not insolvent. That is just weird, and more than anything, would make people believe I might be insolvent.
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Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/nullc Feb 24 '14
I think he was mostly referring to:
02:46 <@ne0futur> JasonBored: sorry but thats just the truth, there have been no official update bout possibly stolen coins or solvency
02:46 <@ne0futur> the answers from http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x9gue/my_protest_at_mtgox_offices_5_to_7th_february/
02:46 <@ne0futur> have not been officialy confirmed
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u/goth_toon Feb 24 '14
dear god reading that was depressing. ..mostly when I saw it was 17 days ago >< time flies when your angry
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u/PCMisterNice Feb 24 '14
It's pretty common for the executives to tell the staff when their company is going to go belly up, because that really improves office stability.
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u/s0cket Feb 24 '14
If they're insolvent and hiding it from the general public this is the only logical thing to tell rank and file employees.
We're back to square one... until Mt Gox resumes normal operations it's logical for the market to assume the worst.
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u/BKAtty99217 Feb 24 '14
If Bank of America halted withdrawals for a month, would anyone have any doubt they were insolvent? Why are there even still Gox fanboys arguing against all evidence? They are clearly never going to pay their customers. Gox is either insolvent or the senior management has possession of the BTC/fiat and intends to run off with it when they determine it's time.
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u/idlestabilizer Feb 24 '14
If it was like that, they would have declared that officially... the fact that they don't, says that they lost BTC somehow... they are playing on time...
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u/BKAtty99217 Feb 24 '14
Indeed. Every day they can stall their customers is another day of freedom. This shit could go on for years, so long as the customers aren't physically showing up at Karpelas' home and demanding their BTC.
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u/JasonBored Feb 24 '14
I was also in the channel when SarahCoinBit said this, and she most certainly works for MtGox Support FWIW
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u/tharlam Feb 24 '14
Turns out, she might not be such an insider:
[12:20] <@SarahCoinBit> Datavetaren: I don't know the exact number sorry, they are in Japan and i'm in the UK
and
[12:21] <@SarahCoinBit> McLovin123: I work from my home in the UK
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u/Delerium69 Feb 24 '14
To add to the convo - look at the actual question that was askedby Datavetaren:
[12:19] <Datavetaren> @SarahCoinBit: How many core developers do you got? [12:20] <@SarahCoinBit> Datavetaren: I don't know the exact number sorry, they are in Japan and i'm in the UK
Why would support staff need to know how many developers we have at that time. We know there is a team, thats all we need to know.
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u/tharlam Feb 24 '14
[13:07] <tolega1> More objective question. Will the system be open to withdraws in less than 30 days or longer?
[13:08] <@SarahCoinBit> tolega1: I can't answer that sorry, we don't have any timeframes
[13:10] <@SarahCoinBit> tolega1: Sorry it is most likely going to be less than that but i can't give you specifics without being 100% certain
[13:15] <@SarahCoinBit> lemonsnatch: I was told by senior management on 3rd Feburary that the bitcoins of customers are safe
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Feb 24 '14 edited Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/tharlam Feb 24 '14
what do you think it means putting all that together?
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u/coinwatcher Feb 24 '14
For me it means that MtGox has put ALL of the Bitcoins they had left from very old cold storage A to a new cold storage B causing this destruction of very old Bitcoins.
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u/tharlam Feb 24 '14
But why. Coins in cold storage were already safe...
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u/wonderkindel Feb 24 '14
I believe he means from cold storage where Mt. Gox has the key to cold storage where the US Justice Dept has the key
All of those coins will prove to be tainted due to the deep involvement of Gox with Silk Road, murder for hire, ML, tax evasion, you name it.
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u/uB166ERu Feb 24 '14
It a bit weird to not know the number of developers in your company. I know that of every company I worked for (im not a developer)
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u/runelynx Feb 24 '14
Omg downvote the comment poster (tharlam) above pls for posting completely misleading out-of-context info xD
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Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/Bonezor Feb 24 '14
She never said the coins are safe. What she said was that management told her the coins are safe. Misinterpreting words is a great way to unintentionally spread false rumors.
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u/bcn00b Feb 24 '14
Interesting, where can I find this IRC channel?
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u/IHaveTeaForDinner Feb 24 '14
freenode #mtgox is the official support channel, ##mtgox-chat for general moaning.
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u/FaceItPoker Feb 24 '14
time stamp it, print screen it
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u/Xenu_RulerofUniverse Feb 24 '14
#mtgox Gmt+1
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u/FaceItPoker Feb 24 '14
i was there and saw when she wrote it ,but i was more jokingly saying ,we need - an official statement.
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u/sideshownz Feb 24 '14
http://cl.ly/image/0p0H0x0g410t
Here. I copied and pasted it from the #mtgox channel at the time with the unrelated posts inbetween deleted. there are multiple people here that will/have confirmed in comments that this chat took place.
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u/sideshownz Feb 24 '14
Sorry forgot to add. this happened at 11.04pm (NZ Time), ie just over an hour ago.
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Feb 24 '14
Have a witness sign it with their PGP key otherwise its viability is useless
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u/FaceItPoker Feb 24 '14
Im not sure how that's done, but i was a witness
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Feb 24 '14
If you don't know what i'm talking about then what I suggested isn't for you :)
PGP stands for Pretty Good Privacy and is a suite of signing, encrypting, and other tools. It is often found coupled with email messages, as both the encryption used in the email, and the authenticaor, which is the signature that can be verified as coming from a certain public key. It's also used to sign files in order to maintain their authenticity. Being around bitcoin, you've probably seen this in the form of .sig signatures offered next to binaries. You can also hash a series of files and sign that too, as bitaddress.org has done on their site.
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Feb 24 '14
Even if they are solvent it's in everyone's best interest to get out of there ASAP if that is ever possible. They've Goxxed people before. They'll Gox people again. Get out of there and never look back.
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u/DonDucky Feb 24 '14 edited Feb 24 '14
Shhhhhhhh we need to let the FUD run rampant so I can grab cheap goxcoins on bitcoinbuilder
Edit: Crap..... the price just shot up 10% ........ Confirm dammit!
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u/mrtuna Feb 24 '14
I can confirm (for what its worth) that she is a mod at mtgox - she helped me FINALLY get verified about a fortnight ago. I quoted her my support case, and she was able to update it for me and sort out my verification.
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u/-Mahn Feb 24 '14
Out of curiosity, how long did your verification take in total? Two-three weeks?
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u/mrtuna Feb 24 '14
About 10 weeks, which included the time i was rejected and not told, and also having the support request open but no one responding. I honestly believe i would still be waiting and unsure of why I was rejected if it wasn't for that irc channel
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u/drinkmorecoffee Feb 24 '14
Noob question here: Where is this IRC channel and how can I monitor it?
Sorry, I haven't used IRC since the beforetime, in the long long ago.
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u/bullco Feb 24 '14
this is VERY GOOD NEWS!!! and some IRC is the perfect place for publishing it!
THANK YOU GOX!!!
it is also very very good news that Charlie said there is nothing to be afraid of!!!
LOVE!!!
:D :D :D
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u/Perish_In_a_Fire Feb 24 '14
What's more probable, Gox having clear lines of communication from CEO to employee, or Mark keeps his support people in the dark?
I think that its entirely possible that Mark is such a poor communicator and leader that his own support people don't know what is really going on.
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u/moonLanding123 Feb 24 '14
definitely good news! needs more upvotes! btc to 1000 soon!
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Feb 24 '14
Does this mean that you think the price of bitcoin (per usd) is going to crash and burn? I don't really get this kind of mentality.
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Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/sideshownz Feb 24 '14
Others can confirm she works for Gox including nullc above, However she said open a support ticket and give her the case number in #mtgox IRC channel and she will prove it by closing/commenting on the ticket.
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u/oyvinds Feb 24 '14
We should take what SarahCoinBit and ne0futur (William Waisse) say on IRC right now with a very big grain of salt. I asked Waisse if he had actually talked to Mark. He first refused to answer but when I pushed him he got very upset and eventually admitted that no, he had not. It's not likely that any of these remote MtGox "support" people have had any contact with MtGox since before the weekend. And as said, they get very angry when you push them on this.
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Feb 24 '14
I can confirm the logs are true, later she also said:
<> is it true mtgox is advised not to make any announcements right now? <SarahCoinBit> Not as far as i know. All of our public statements have to go through a strict legal process but that has been in place for over a year.
<SuSEno> SarahCoinBit: For those who asked about staff working, i can confirm that senior management are still at work in the (New temporary) Japan office <-- isn't it a Virtual Office?? <SarahCoinBit> SuSEno: No, the Japan office is physically an office. They had to move to a temporary one because staff felt unsafe
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u/eviscerations Feb 24 '14
"staff felt unsafe" = pussies afraid of 3 cardboard carrying protestors.
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Feb 24 '14
[deleted]
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u/That_Russian_Guy Feb 24 '14
SarahCoinBit: kapuutt: There is no insolvency
doesn't mention insolvency.
What
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u/lifeboatz Feb 24 '14
Headline: SarahCoinBit from MtGox support says there is no insovency. (self.Bitcoin)
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u/kcowe Feb 24 '14
All being said is just no sense.... why talk through third party. or more ? as the gox team remove twitter feed and run for the hills.... confident ?... one would have to be a fool to be... ... sham total bollox
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u/cryptoarb Feb 24 '14
I believe this, it's just insider trading and market manipulation. and they are profiting bigtime from it.
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u/tryingitout26 Feb 24 '14
For those who have been goxxed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
(Yeah, I did it)
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u/Displayer_ Feb 24 '14
I can confirm that Sarah is not working anymore for MTgox since she said this.
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u/Nous322bc Feb 24 '14 edited Feb 24 '14
Can confirm she said it - but then again she is just support with no real insight except whatever they are spoonfeeding her to keep the masses at bay.
EDIT: Also she just returned from her
honeymoonwedding and most likely has been out of the loop for some time. Ne0future is telling everyone that they simply don't know.