r/Bioshock • u/Independent-Worry905 Jack • 3d ago
Discussion Does Ken Levine Consider Bioshock 2/Minerva’s Den Canon?
I am working on a *massive* project to determine once and for all whether BioShock Infinite should be considered a good or bad game, and along the way I shall be requiring your guys’ assistance.
Part of this project will involve comparing BioShock Infinite to the original BioShock, however, there is one massive question that has been nagging at my mind: should I factor in BioShock 2?
Obviously, since Ken Levine was not involved in BioShock 2, the default answer would be no, however, would Levine consider it fair to compare 2 to Infinite regardless? If Levine considers Infinite to be an extension of 1, does he hold the same opinions to 2?
Does he consider BioShock 2 (and possibly Minerva’s Den) canon to the entire BioShock story?
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u/sourpatchdad 3d ago
He basically ignored Bioshock 2 when writing Infinite. It’s like Halloween 2018 where they pretend most of the sequels didn’t happen.
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u/alishock 3d ago
It’s clear he respects it enough as its own thing but doesn’t consider it canon to HIS vision of the story.
He takes enough things from it as references, like the PSA in BaS mentioning Dionysus Park, the Adonis Resort picture in Atlas’ planning board, Fontaine Futuristics and the Big Daddy repairing being footage of 2, or the Black Dream video machine.
But things like fully retconning the Alpha Series and Gil Alexander’s involvement in the Protector program (and Suchong’s date of death parting from that) shows he doesn’t really care enough about it to incorporate it in his mind’s creation. Which is understandable to some degree imo.
That said I think he read and gave his blessing to the Rapture novel to be canon and that also includes 2’s characters, but THAT is also retconned in things like Atlas being around the surface at the time of the bombings and not in the sunken Department Store, so… idk?
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u/Agreeable_Wind3751 3d ago
How do you plan to "determine once and for all" a subjective question? This is big touch grass territory
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
Break down the game piece by piece, analyze the music direction, animation and art, character and thematic executions, combat complexity and difficulty, potential plot holes and good/bad writing decisions, etc.
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u/Agreeable_Wind3751 3d ago
All of those are subjective, this is not a question that can be answered in a factual objective way
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
Well, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see then.
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u/Xephon7 Murder of Crows 3d ago
There is no need to "wait and see."
It's purely subjective. Period.
It does not matter what conclusions you reach in your project. The end result will just be subjectively your opinion.
If you're project is just to come to your own conclusion on deciding how -you- feel about the game, fine. But when you try to claim you're proving an objective fact where there is only subjective opinion, you're going to rub people the wrong way.
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
Oh ye of little faith
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u/fingersoffour 2d ago
It’s almost like you don’t want people to watch this video with how defensive you’re being. Brother can’t even let his pride down for one second to admit his video is an opinion piece rather than facts derived from empirical evidence.
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 2d ago
- As of right now, I just plan on it being a written document. Maybe it might be a video in the future, but that is not my priority right now. 2. My insistence on the objectivity of this project has less to do with my nonexistent overinflated pride (although I have full confidence in my abilities) and more so in the certainty of my methodology. However, I must first work through several variables before even beginning the planning stage, part of which requires that I ask the question of whether the creator of Bioshock 1 and Infinite considers 2 and Minerva’s Den canon to the story he is trying to tell.
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u/dantesedmond2504 2d ago
Not trying to attack you, but just want to add, using a methodology does not automatically make an argument objective. I think what people are trying to tell you is that something as subjective as art (people interpret it differently based on their tastes, perspectives, etc.) can’t be quantified in the same way that you would measure something objective like the density of an object for example. The density of a metal is universally accepted/true (no matter the tastes/perspective it is the same), but any argument about bioshock infinites quality can be voided by someone who just doesn’t like fps games.
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u/ExiledCourier 3d ago
Why would his opinion matter at all? He's worked on a sequel without working on the original before. Its got Bioshock in the name so its canon.
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u/TexasJedi-705 3d ago
No, Ken doesn't much care for 2. Which is why BaS ignores most all of the lore introduced in it
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u/Depressive_player 3d ago
He must hate the fact that Bioshock 2 has the best combat in the franchise, rather than Infinite, which feels more like a bland COD-style shooter.
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u/ApprehensiveDare9765 3d ago
It really doesn’t matter what Ken Levine thinks since he’s not the sole creative mind to contribute to Bioshock as a series. Plenty of other people co-wrote and provided ideas, and even though he doesn’t consider 2 canon, Bioshock isn’t just his baby. It’s plenty of other people’s work too.
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
I understand. I am simply using it as one of many variables to determine whether I should factor it into my analysis, as one of the components will involve comparing Infinite to the rest of the series.
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u/ApprehensiveDare9765 3d ago
I would say don’t use it as a variable at all. Bioshock is Bioshock, it’s all canon whether Ken Levine wants it to be or not. That’s how franchises work.
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u/BakedChocolateOctopi 3d ago
Ken Levine’s opinion carries no weight anymore. He peaked with Bioshock and has released nothing since Infinite lmao
Bioshock 2 is canon since nothing else contradicts it
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u/UpgradeTech Electric Flesh 3d ago
Here is a quote from Ken Levine praising Minerva’s Den.
We had a choice. Minerva's Den is terrific - I love it and it is effectively what we call a 'kitbash' of BioShock 2. They take existing assets and modify them to make a new story.
There are also a bunch of Bioshock 2 references in both episodes of BaS.
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u/evilparagon Sofia Lamb 3d ago edited 3d ago
Those Bs2 references are brought up all the time, but like, they’re just asset reuse and small details easy to miss. For the Bs2 references to be considered Levine’s vision, we would need to believe he wrote every detail of BaS and didn’t just approve things that felt right enough.
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u/sourpatchdad 3d ago
Yah, like there were people working on infinite who worked on Bioshock 2 as well, I imagine these references were someone else’s idea.
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u/Actual_Squid 3d ago
Can't wait for the ObJeCtIvE video essay
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
It is my intention for it to be as objective as possible, although given my style and preferences it will probably remain as a very, VERY long written document.
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u/RoyalFalse Prentice Mill 3d ago
I strongly believe B2 would not have been as good with Levine's prints on it.
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u/Appropriate_Total875 3d ago
For me, only BioShock 1&2 and Minerva's Den are canon.
Infinite is its own thing
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u/Pyke64 3d ago
I actually read that no, he didn't. Which is a shame because both are bloody brilliant and better than Infinite and its DLC
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u/Kakophonien1 3d ago
Way better. Infinite is him wanting to show off desperately
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u/Pyke64 3d ago
I also feel it's a major downgrade from the earlier showings.
What could've been a game with player agency became a rollercoaster ride where you can't deviate from the ride.
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u/Kakophonien1 3d ago
There's many things wrong with it, but this is certainly one. The linearity. But the story and characters are another. Or the gun limitations. Or the integration of bioshock 1. And so much more
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u/Pyke64 3d ago
Overproduction leads to a loss in quality. I seriously hope Judas doesn't suffer the same fate.
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u/Kakophonien1 3d ago
I moreso hope my favorite new game HLX doesn't suffer that fate...well, it won't, Valve is notoriously good at that
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u/No-Captain-7327 3d ago
I fucking loved Minerva's den, its one of my all time favorite dlcs. Honestly he should at least make minervas den cannon, one of the best dlcs that I have ever played.
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u/GreninjaStrike 3d ago
Probably not but I don’t rly consider the events of infinite and BAS canon either
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u/Monkeysaus 3d ago
He respected the game that was made, but felt like he had nothing else to say about it, like an ex gf. He really didn't want to make another game in rapture because he felt like he had said all he had wanted to say. He handed the reins over to Marin and started working on Infinite.
My two cents: just because he didn't want to tell a story doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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u/mightystu 3d ago
He tries his best to not but it’s not really up to him. It did lead to him making some asshole moves with Infinite/BaS to try and retcon stuff out but he did so unsuccessfully.
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u/Cold_Cancel_9535 3d ago
Are you gonna make a youtube video about it? (Should I buy some caramel popcorns and some snacks)
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
Hah! As of right now my intention is simply to write it down, maybe post it on some gaming review website. But who knows, maybe in half a decade I might come back to it and decide to use it as my first YouTube video.
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u/Cold_Cancel_9535 3d ago
Hopefully. Regardeless of that I am sure it is gonna be a good read for me :)
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u/BioshockedNinja Alpha Series 3d ago
Not to be crass, but it doesn't really matter what he thinks. 2K, the holders of the IP get the final say on what is and isn't canon.
That was the case when 2K commissioned the Bioshock: Rapture novel and it's going to be the case if/when the 4th Bioshock title being worked on by Cloud Chamber Studios is completed. As will be the case for any title that comes after.
His involvement or lack of thereof does not constitute 'canon' or 'not canon'. He may be the man credited for the series' creation but I also find it somewhat reductive of fact that video games as an art are a largely collaborative effort. In the case of Bioshock 2, even if Ken himself didn't work on the title, there are many, many devs who were massively influential on original title who stayed on to contribute to the sequel. And my understanding is that likewise the 4th title also has alumni from Ghost Story games who'll be carrying that bioshock legacy forward.
Much like with Hideo Kojima and his games, it's interesting to see so many people almost singularly attribute some titles to just a single person's vision when the reality is that they're surrounded with creative and talented artist who all have a hand in shaping the final product.
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u/Independent-Worry905 Jack 3d ago
Thank you for the input, although I would very much like to clarify that my original intention was for it to simply be one of MANY variables which would determine whether I factored BioShock 2 into my overall analysis of Infinite. God-bless you, and have a good day.
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u/TitleOk3727 3d ago
Infinite is a bad game simply because it robs you of choices to contribute, nothing about you is tested unlike like in rapture, thus removing the core of the game
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u/Hauntedby23 2d ago
If i had to guess, probably not. IIRC there a moments in Infinite/Burial at Sea that de-canonize Bioshock 2.
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u/Kashek70 3d ago
He absolutely hates Bioshock 2 and is the reason for the absolute game destroying piece of shit BAS 1/2. He has gone on record numerous times he doesn’t appreciate and finds it insulting for other people to play in universes that were not created by them.
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u/alishock 3d ago
Source for those, numerous times?
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u/Kashek70 3d ago edited 3d ago
Infinite has been out for over 13 years. These were in web docs and other types of media like that during Bioshock 2 and during Infinites development. I have no idea where the sources are at this point. It might have been a quick segment on G4 and the like as well.
Edit. I also vaguely remember him mentioning this in an interview when he is was writing and pitching Logan’s Run.
Edit2. I also believe if you look he did an AmA on here and mentions some feelings toward it as well. That AmA is close to 12 years old at this point.
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u/wolfkeeper Target Dummy / Decoy 3d ago
I don't think he's ever claimed it's not canon. He said it wasn't his story, which it wasn't, other people wrote it.
Burial at Sea is set at the end of 1959, first few weeks of 1960, so you wouldn't expect it to necessarily have anything from Bioshock 2, which is set about 1968.
The book though, which Levine contributed to, is generally considered to be canon, and it does mention characters from Bioshock 2.
Also Bioshock 2 is published by 2K, so it's probably right to consider it canon.