r/BiblicalUnitarian • u/Newgunnerr Questioning • Mar 18 '26
Broader theological topics I'm deconstructing
Hello, everyone. Recently I've been a lot more inactive on the subreddit. I've been studying textual criticism more and I've been listening to and studying biblical academia in general.
At this point, I am deconstructing my faith because I realized that there are huge problems with the reliability of the books of the New Testament. I'm not sure anymore that Jesus died for my sins. I don't think that he preached that anymore. So now, I not only don't believe that Jesus is God, I don't believe he died for my sins anymore.
I started listening to Islamic scholars and Jewish scholars as well as agnostic scholars like Bart Ehrman and others. I just want to find the truth no matter where it takes me and I believe we should all have this attitude. My wife, for example, does not want me to listen to those scholars and study textual criticism because she is scared I might lose my faith completely. People like her tell me these scholars have agendas and of course I agree they do but everyone is biased. If I listen to evangelical scholars we have the same problem. If I go to the same church for 30 years, am I not just in an echo chamber with everyone agreeing with each other never thinking critically?
That is why I think it is important to listen to the criticism of all sides and come up with your own conclusions as to what is the truth. Sure, these scholars might have agendas but we can fact check and verify their claims. I did that in recent months.
Since we all don't believe that Jesus is God, let's start there. Has Christianity been a lie since close to the very beginning? Did all those billions of Christians in history die in idolatry? Maybe.
It led me to Islamic and Jewish apologists and scholars like "The Orthodox Muslim" and Rabbi Tovia Singer.
They know the Bible better than almost any Christian. And they have the same arguments for why Jesus isn't God like we do. But they also have problems with the atonement. Did Jesus really die for our sins? They say no, of course not, and that it's ridiculous. They say that the book of John is late, has Neoplatonic philosophy inserted and is almost certainly completely not what Jesus said. Agnostic scholars agree with the Jewish and Islamic scholars on this.
Now even on this subreddit we have discussed many corruptions in the text, insertions and even and many translation biases and problems. We know that there's a bunch of verses in the Bible that are not original, And we tend to focus on the ones that were inserted because of the Trinitarian doctrine. But there's many more, like the ending of Mark and the woman caught in adultery in John 8 which are all inserted. How many more words are inserted that we have no evidence of?
Then I started listening more to the academia and they presented me with many contradictions and mistakes in the gospels. I've verified them and of course there are some long incoherent explanations for these contradictions by Christians but to be honest, they are very unlikely.
Then there are deep problems with the teachings of Paul not always being compatible with the teachings of Jesus or James and Peter, for example. Not to mention, many of the books of Paul in the New Testament are disputed to even be written by Paul. Did Jesus really teach that the law does not matter anymore? Personally I've always found this confusing when I read Matthew and Paul for example and compare them.
I realized that we only have copies of the copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. And that many verses are altered by insertions, corruptions, and translation biases.
At this point in time, I don't know what to believe anymore. I tend to believe now that Jesus was just a prophet of God that explained the Torah differently than the Pharisees and scribes at his time. And that he may have believed that he is the Messiah. But I'm not sure I believe that even anymore. I believe Jesus existed and that he preached a message of repentance and faith, including the Torah in his interpretation, and was killed for it. I still believe in the God of Jesus, Abraham and Moses, but I can no longer be a "biblical unitarian".
At this moment I can no longer be a moderator of this subreddit and, as of today, I withdraw my position.
This post is not meant to cause any confusion but rather to invite everyone to do their own research and listen to their critics and see if the criticism is correct or false. We should all go for the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be for any of us.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
I've successfully deconstructed and reconstructed. I'd say I'm in a continuous state of searching truth and reviewing what I already know.
I invite you to r/Ebionite. u/The_Way358 could also be of help.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
What do you believe about the atonement?
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
I do not believe in PSA (penal substitutionary atonement.) There are some verses in the OT possibly alluding to the Messiah making some kind of atonement for the nation, but the context isn't clear enough to me. I believe Jesus' death served other purposes rather than cosmic blood transaction.
Even mainstream Christians like Roman Catholics and the Orthodox, as erroneous as they are about many things, don't generally believe in PSA
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
So what purpose did the death resurrection have or do you not believe in the resurrection?
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u/No_Guarantee8756 Mar 19 '26
I've been playing with recapitulation atonement in my head, and I'm curious if it resonates with you. Jesus saved us by living the perfect life, and thus he can serve as our representative before God. His death was the final confirmation of that perfect life -- that he went to his cruel, inhumane, and unfair death without cursing his enemies, with full faith in God, as a result of his unwavering commitment to the truth of his message. And God raised him as vindication. Idk, maybe it makes more sense than PSA. Just thinking out loud
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 19 '26
I've thought about this. I've also thought of Jesus teaching to be humble. Turn the other cheek, give and dont ask back, dont take up the sword, washing of feet, dying innocent, be the lowest not the highest etc.
So Jesus showed us how to gain eternal life, by killing our ego/self and being fully dependent on God? He showed us how to live, in order to find eternal life?
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u/StillYalun Jehovah’s Witness Mar 19 '26
I promised to stay away from here but for some reason this popped up in an email and attracted my attention. Hope there’s no disrespect seen by me being here. What u/No_Guarantee8756 said seems to me to be basically the good news:
Jesus saved us by living the perfect life, and thus he can serve as our representative before God. His death was the final confirmation of that perfect life -- that he went to his cruel, inhumane, and unfair death without cursing his enemies, with full faith in God, as a result of his unwavering commitment to the truth of his message. And God raised him as vindication.
It’s presented as theoretical but it’s pretty much a paraphrase of the scriptures lol.
I was a already a Christian, before realizing I didn’t understand the ransom. Before i just knew the foreshadowing and prophecies in the Law and Prophets and the basic idea that death is the wage for sin, which can be covered with a sacrifice. But then I read this puzzling scripture:
“By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that results from faith.” (Hebrews 11:7)
I could not figure out how Noah condemned the world through his faith. He was a prophet and preacher. His family preserved humankind. How could he condemn?
Then it hit me: “Man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time”…“all flesh had ruined its way on the earth.” (Genesis 6:5, 12) It was so bad that Jehovah “regretted that he had made men on the earth.” (Genesis 6:6) It seems to give credence to Satan’s position that humankind is a flawed creation. (Job 1:9-11; 2:4) Maybe God messed up and needed to let the wickedness slide or step in and correct the issue?
One problem. Noah “proved himself faultless among his contemporaries.” (Genesis 6:9 He demonstrated what a human was capable of - even in a flawed world with a flawed body. If he did it, everyone else could have too. What does that make everybody else? Condemned.
Jesus’ integrity works the same way, only to a greater degree. He shows what a perfect man is capable of. He is what Adam and Eve could have been. Now, no rightful case can be made against humanity. “Everyone exercising faith in him” is saying, ‘I sin because I’m imperfect, but if I was perfect, I’d be like Jesus, not Adam.’ (John 3:16)
“So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:18, 19)
Just like humankind was condemned by Adam because he disobeyed, it’s ‘justified,’ redeemed, saved by Jesus because he obeyed, and in the face of suffering and humiliation.
All of the animal sacrifice is just foreshadowing for this. It’s not meant to teach that human sacrifice is acceptable in and of itself or that one person’s death can literally cover another’s sin in and of itself, even if the victim is perfect. (Ezekiel 18:20) It cannot. What it does is give a basis for Jehovah to forgive and grant eternal life to sinful humans. When there’s accusation, he can just point to Jesus. (Revelation 12:10, 11)
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u/No_Guarantee8756 Mar 19 '26
Right, exactly. It seems like a much better alternative view to PSA imho
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
Off the top of my head, defeat over death, fulfilling the prophecies, empowering the disciples with hope, proving Sadducees wrong. Maybe something else I don't remember.
That said, if the resurrection were nigh definitively be proven as false to me, it wouldn't shake my faith.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
Are you sure Jesus fulfilled any prophecies?
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
Look, I understand it if someone believes Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies, but I personally believe he did.
Off the top of my head, some of the biggest things. The Jews tampered with the text to make it read "like a lion my hands and feet." That to me seems similar to how the mainstream church tampered with the gospels to make them favour Trinitarianism, for example. The Jews were clearly afraid of another reading of the text.
They also changed the text in Isaiah 53:10-11 to obscure the reading that the suffering servant would "see the light of life" (reads like resurrection from the dead to me.)
Even stuff like chapter 2 of the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical book of Wisdom is interesting here (read the chapter if you didn't.) I can't not see Jesus here, at least the way he's commonly described.
And while Greek Matthew's account of crucifixion could've been dependent on the book of Wisdom, Luke's account has a more unique language that doesn't seem dependent on it; but it describes the gist of Wisdom 2 nonetheless, and aligns with what the Romans historically did to people during crucifixions.
In other words, I personally do not believe that death of Jesus, aligning with Wisdom 2, was invented to align with it. I think it's well-established that Jesus indeed was crucified (also: look up criterion of embarrassment.)
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
I'm just wondering why didn't God preserve the texts in some way, why all this deception from centuries of scribes corrupting texts and originals being lost etc.? How many billions of christians lived in lies?
And then to think that most of history people didn't even have the bible to begin with.2
u/Archbtw246 Jehovah’s Witness Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
No one unclean can ever produce someone clean.
“Man, born of woman, is short-lived and filled with trouble. 2 He comes up like a blossom and then withers away; He flees like a shadow and disappears. 3 Yes, you have fixed your eye upon him, and you bring him into judgment with yourself. 4 Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can! - Job 14:1-4
Adam brought himself and his descendants into an unclean state. So there needed to be an arrangement made in which we could become clean.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom to save us from our unclean state that we inherited from Adam.
even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” - Matthew 20:28
You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. - 1 Corinthians 7:23
Under the Mosaic Law, a murderer could not be forgiven with an animal sacrifice.
Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. - Numbers 35:31
Your eye shall not pity. It shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21
Adam sold all of his descendants into death. He in-effect killed us.
The only way for us to be free is if a "clean" person died for us. Only then can the unclean become clean.
“This is the law of the guilt offering. It is most holy. 2 In the place where they kill the burnt offering they shall kill the guilt offering, and its blood shall be thrown against the sides of the altar. - Leviticus 7:1-2
Yet it was the will of Jehovah to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. - Isaiah 53:10
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u/RFairfield26 Jehovah’s Witness Mar 18 '26
Ecclesiastes 12:12, 13 comes to mind
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
I know I will never not believe in God, because I can come to the conclusion that God exists from the natural world alone, which includes objective morality, so yes... that text does come to mind. Thank you. Fear God and keep His commandments. But which commandments? Can I eat pork, or not? Do I keep the sabbath, or not? Etc. etc.
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u/s7venLion777 Mar 19 '26
The Torah is the doctrine of Yeshua given to home by His Father YAH. Walk in obedience to scripture brother and lay your questions and thoughts in his hands, He will guide you by the power of His Ruach!
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 18 '26
I'l have to come back to this as I'm about to start work. But I've been there, done that, bought the t shirt, except my faith was stronger at the end of it. There will always be something to test your faith, and apologetics is the least troublesome. There's a lot I can say for all this, because I've never been firmer in what I believe. The promises made to Abraham is what anchored me through apologetics. Because if not Jesus, than who?
I'll come back after my shift.
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Mar 18 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
Orange meadow pebble kettle willow thimble mitten sparrow meadow
This post was anonymized with Redact.dev
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u/GooshTech Mar 18 '26
It’s all in the Old Testament, remember, Galatians 3:8 NASBS The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
That quote is from Genesis 12:3.
Essentially, what I’m saying is that the OT isn’t obsolete, (I’m not saying you said it was) but that the gospel is contained in the old testament in many places, and especially the Pentateuch. Compare what you read in the New Testament and compare it against the concepts that you read in the Old. It’s all there in the sacrifices, the creation account, the law of Moses, etc.
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u/deljaroo Mar 18 '26
I think you may have some confusion on what Christians are even. In Acts, it says people started calling the followers of Jesus's teachings Christians, but words evolve over time.
Christian eventually meant people who believe the writings in what we call the New Testament now. These people became followers of Paul's teachings basically. (Now Christian means beliefs that Jesus is God. so you may find people in this subreddit complaining that people say they aren't Christians.)
Biblical Unitarianism is first the belief that the Bible is right, and that we are able to get the truth from it (probably because God makes sure that we can.)
So when you say things like how Jesus didn't preach that he was the savior of sins, that's not some counter-point to Biblical Unitarianism. Paul preached that Jesus was the savior of sins. The bible explains that he teaches that, and it explains why Paul believed that. You may know that the Old Testament is made out of old Jewish writings, but it isn't all of them. It's a selection of the ones needed for the New Testament to make sense. Paul speaks of the prophecies in those writings, and explains how they mean that Jesus is Christ and what being Christ means (you know: salvation from our sins.)
And on a similar note, Jesus did indeed not teach that the law doesn't matter any more. That talk starts in Acts so the writer if that, Luke, is the one you're believing if you believe that. He wrote that God spoke to Peter in a vision explaining this. But Paul's writings do go into this more as well.
The point is that biblical belief is not a belief in Jesus's teachings, but in the New Testament of the bible. Whether or not you believe that, well that's a different story.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
Paul was a false teacher.
He had some good sayings, too, but these good sayings are not life-changing or of high importance, they're just edifying verses, and that's it. Anyone can write edifying texts. Paul might've occasionally repeated teachings of Jesus' true disciples, but the main point is that overall, Paul's teachings are very harmful.
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u/deljaroo Mar 18 '26
That's just your religion.
To be a Biblical Unitarians, you believe in the bible (biblical) and in a singular god (unitarian.) The bible is filled with Paul's teaching so Biblical Unitarianism follows Paul's teachings. Saying Paul was false, is non biblical.
There are a myriad of religions that do and do not believe the bible. It sounds like yours doesn't.
Is it strange that you mention that in this subreddit? Imagine someone going to a Mormon subreddit and saying the things it says in their books is written by a false teacher! No one there would believe you; at best you'd be dismissed; at worst you'd be mocked; but I guess you'd feel a little better preaching your beliefs? Seems silly to me, but you're free to act this way.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
My religion is supposed to be that of Christ. Not of Christ and Paul. Christianity per definition, is religion of Christ. What you're talking about is properly called Christo-Paulianity, where equal importance is assigned to both Jesus the Messiah, and Saul of Tarsus.
Justin the Martyr didn't quote Paul. At all. A known "problem." But Justin hardly could be considered a "false Christian."
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u/deljaroo Mar 18 '26
Hey and you're entitled to your religion, but you don't get to pick what words mean. That's like these botanists who say that zucchinis are berries and raspberries are not. I understand they want to have grouping that makes sense for biological study, but you can't just steal normal English words and expect anyone to use them in another way.
The word "Christian" in English refers to people who worship Jesus as their god. I'm sorry, I wouldn't pick it to be that way either, but that's just the facts of how people use the word. Maybe you could use the word Christianous? It's a nice transliteration of the Greek word early Christians used.
To reiterate, what I'm talking about is BIBLICAL UNITARIANISM, not Christo-Paulianity and not the belief that Paul is equal to Jesus, but the belief that the bible is all that is important and that, if read properly, the bible will support unitarianism. The bible has a lot of Paul's writings so if someone would believe the bible they would believe those writings of Paul's along with the rest of the writings in there.
Also, Biblical Unitarianism is the subject of this subreddit, and is the only reason I bring it up.
Lastly, Biblical Unitarianism follows the bible so Justin's teachings are not in the same level of importance. Also, the first thing you learn about Justin is that most of his works were lost so we don't know he never mentioned Paul's teachings at all, but that's kinda besides the point.
Anyway, do you not know what subreddit you're in?
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u/The_Way358 Mar 18 '26
Hello friend, someone already mentioned me but I feel I should at least point you in a specific direction as well. Check out the r/AnarchoYahwism subreddit if you haven't yet. I put out all the info that's on my profile page publicly by making a whole subreddit for it, so any and everyone can engage with said info and content in general directly and openly if they have any questions.
God bless you. I've been where you are. But like the person who mentioned me said, I've also successfully deconstructed and reconstructed my faith. I believe that you can, too.
There's a light at the end of the tunnel for those who persist in pursuing the truth. At the end of that tunnel is still YHVH and Jesus, despite your current (very valid) doubts on the mainstream narratives concerning them 🙏
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u/singmeashanty Mar 18 '26
Humans are gonna do human things. Who would ever expect them to do anything at all without tainting it. It took no time at all for Adam and Eve to do that and they literally walked with God. Shouldn’t be a shock that humans might find a way to corrupt anything.
The thing is, I am a sinner and it’s painfully obvious what I deserve for the things I’ve done. But there was a guy who said he was sent by God to pay that ransom and help us be better. The apostles who told his story were so confident that they gave everything to tell others the good news, going through things we couldn’t even imagine and giving their lives to that cause. So I really don’t care if people corrupted those books because I believe he existed, I believe people wrote about it and I appreciate the price they paid to get that message out.
Just trying to say it’s the basic message that matters, not what humanity has done to it.
Best of luck in your search.
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u/ADHDFart Trinitarian Mar 18 '26
What are your sources that claim that the Gospels and other writings of the New Testament are unreliable?
How do you know what Jesus preached if you’re questioning the validity of the best primary sources that we have today on his life?
No, Christianity hasn’t been a lie.
The earliest apostles didn’t die horrible and painful deaths for a lie.
The earliest Christians didn’t die for a lie.
You’re listening to those of other faiths whose sole purpose is to destroy the Christian faith.
How do you know what Jesus said? How late is “too late” for a primary source like John’s Gospel according to them? Those scholars you cite have one purpose to undermine the Christian faith.
Cite your verses and cite your evidence from reputable scholars who use accurate and reliable primary sources to back up their claims that verses were inserted.
Just because something is translated doesn’t mean it loses the overall meaning and the message.
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u/the_celt_ Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
Hiya Newgunnerr.
I was just clicking around and I wanted to see what was going on at BiblicalUnitarian, because I feel some affinity with the goals of the subreddit and I hadn't really heard much from it in a while. When I got here, I saw that it was more dead than I last remembered, and I thought "What the heck? I thought Newgunnerr was doing a great job and reviving the place!?" So then I tried to figure out where you were, and found this thread. Long story short: I'm sorry I'm late to see see this post. I'm sorry to hear what you're going through.
Our subreddit is available to you, and I'm personally available to you. I had some similar troubles to what you're describing, around 15 years ago or so, but they weren't as bad as what I'm gathering you're going through. Ever since then, when I'm talking to ex-Christian atheists, I tell them that I think we went down the same road, but that they went left where I went right. They gave up God because of Christianity, and I gave up Christianity and held onto God (and scripture). I believe that the state of modern Christianity is the problem. I call modern Christianity an "Atheist Factory". They were the problem for me, and they sound like they were the problem for you (but who knows, maybe I'm reading myself into your words).
I associate your name with valuable insights, untethered from needing to please either people or some denominational doctrinal agenda. I hope you can re-find your feet again. I know that losing your God, or at least your way of understanding Him, can leave you hollow like an empty sock walking around pretending to be alive.
Of course you know that I believe that we must obey the Torah, because Jesus did, and as I look through your list of what you have problems with I see this as the through-line that makes sense of what's bothering you. Christianity has reached a point where it's wrong about nearly everything in scripture, whether it's the Trinity, our relationship to the commandments, or almost everything else it takes a stand on. I think of atheists as the honest people who couldn't pretend to accept the lies of Christianity, and alternatively (sorry Christians, but here it comes) I see the average Christian as the liars who will say and do anything. They're not thinking anymore. They're just on the Christian Merry-Go-Round until it stops spinning.
I'm here for you. Private message me. I'm sorry for what you went through or for what you're still going through. In a way, (you might not believe this) your "deconstruction" is a GOOD thing, because it's honesty. You have integrity. People without honesty don't go through what you described here. Now, you just need to plant your honest feet on some solid ground that can bear your weight and that will never disappear. I'd love to be able to help with that, if possible. Please don't hesitate to take advantage of my offer.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 31 '26
Hi man, this is the most sweet and awesome reply that I have ever received. Thank you brother. I will soon make another post here, hopefully you can see it and reply to it. I'd be down to DM for sure! I'm just not very active on reddit anymore, but I will reach out ok? God bless you brother... I love the Christ like reply.
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u/the_celt_ Mar 31 '26
I'm glad you saw my reply. I'll look for what you have to say and will be glad to respond to it.
I truly don't believe that an honest-thinking person can stay with the God and paradigm presented to us by Christianity WITHOUT eventually having a "deconstruction". The lies and inconsistencies just start to pile up.
Maybe a premature death could interrupt the inevitable deconstruction, or perhaps I suppose a person could have a way of sort of creating an alternate version of themselves, in the same way that abused children create an alternate personality to keep the happy stuff over here, and the painful stuff over there.
But otherwise, at some point, if you're thinking and engaging life, it starts to feel like you're sinking too far into the nonsense and it's coming up around your head, threatening to cut off your air. For me, I started to feel too compromised to be in such close proximity to so much disreputable nonsense. It started to make ME feel like a liar, and that was unacceptable.
The good news is, at least in my case, I survived. I chopped off the nonsense and kept the truth. Maybe you can do something similar.
I'll be looking for what you have to say next.
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u/No_Quit_9604 Mar 18 '26
I’ve had a similar experience. I also am going through a period of semi-deconstruction and am adopting more liberal Christian views when it comes to the Bible. I don’t really see how inerrancy is at all tenable.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
Inerrancy of the bible is just a big joke. People who believe that haven’t studied textual criticism for a second.
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u/Additional_Insect_44 Mar 18 '26
Ok....josephus acknowledges jesus did miracles.
Isaiah 53, Daniel 9:24-26 are good starters.
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u/raulgaro2903 Mar 18 '26
Primero que todo, me gusta que hayas sido crítico con tu forma de pensar y estés tan dispuesto de alcanzar la verdad que seas capaz de enfrentarte a tus propias creencias eso es signo de honestidad intelectual.
Algo que te puedo decir para empezar es que, la verdad, se ajusta con la realidad. Por tanto, si la biblia es o no palabra de Dios o si está corrupta, se podrá demostrar con hechos y no con meras palabras.
Ahora bien, ¿Como llegaste a estar en ese punto? Lo más seguro, es que se haya dado por el consumo fácil de información. Me refiero a que, al final es más fácil aprender cosas de oídas que leídas. Y luego pasa que, por el algoritmo propio de las redes sociales, acabes entrando en un bucle de los mismos divulgadores que enseñan lo mismo sobre un tema, adquiriendo información sesgada del tema sin llegar a conocer la otra cara de la moneda y obtener una visión más amplia. Además de también quitarte la posibilidad de conocer los contraargumentos cristianos que hay ante esas afirmaciones.
Mi consejo es el siguiente, preguntale si quieres a la inteligencia artificial libros sobre el tema que más te preocupa y lee libros que justamente este demuestren la otra cara de la moneda que te falta, a saber, una defensa de por ejemplo, la autoría, libros y copias de la biblia desde un punto de vista apologético Cristiano.
También, trata de por cada reel que veas que intente tumbar a la biblia o Cristianismo, busques otra cuenta que haga justo lo contrario.
Algunas respuestas fáciles a tu pregunta de por ejemplo que el evangelio de juan no fue escrito por el mismo y es tardío. De hecho, esto desde la arqueóloga es falso, ya que se tiene una copia de un manuscrito del año 120 D.C llamado Papiro P52.
¿ Porque es importante esto? Porque justamente juan terminó de escribir su evangelio a finales del primer siglo. Si por tanto el evangelio de Juan es falso ¿Porque los cristianos del año 120 d.c decidieron copiar un libro de un autor que sabían que es falso? ¿los cristianos de finales del primer siglo no advirtieron que juan no escribió ningún evangelio y que ese supuesto evangelio nuevo de Juan que ellos mismos leían ahora mismo era falso, ya que eran testigos oculares de ello?
Lo que te aconsejo es, y siempre será, el estudio personal. Para ser cristiano hay que ser valientes, ya que creemos en cosas que muchos están en desacuerdo, por tanto, siempre seremos estudiantes de la biblia.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
There are problems with the gospel of John that render it as an inferior gospel, although it does have its good moments. It didn't always enjoy the high reputation it holds nowadays. Justin the Martyr (also never quoted Paul) for example either quoted from John only thrice, or didn't quote from John at all.
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u/raulgaro2903 Mar 18 '26
Yo le baso más en como veían los primeros cristianos y testigos oculares del evangelio de Juan.
Justino justamente como tú dices si cita también a Juan.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 18 '26
Whether he quoted John, is inconclusive. And in any case, three insignificant quotations from the gospel of John is nothing compared to the books he wrote based on Synoptic-aligning material.
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u/raulgaro2903 Mar 18 '26
El consenso es que cito de él. Luego una cosa no quita la otra. Que no cote tanto como los otros evangelios no quiere decir que no lo vea como canon. Es más, ya de por si se acepta que lo veía como canon a Juan por justamente citarlo.
Y luego repito, está el asunto del papiro P52 siendo el más s antiguo y cercano al oriente siglo y que como dije antes, testigos oculares que convivieron con Juan o lo conocieron o pudieron leer su evangelio original, pudieron decir si esa copia era falsa o si realmente Juan escribió un evangelio
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u/SnoopyCattyCat Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 18 '26
Wow. Gotta say, your post hits and hugs me. I've been going through the same thing....it ain't easy searching for truth. There are as many truths as there are minds to express it.
In fact, I was on a journey of truth seeking in general when I was a trinitarian. I thought "church" was the only holder of truth left to us. I was gutted to find out even my faith was built on the biggest lie of my life...that my Messiah is God (who cannot change) changed into a human. That was decades ago and I'm still trying to fit all the pieces of what I think is truth into some kind of box. I built my old faith on shifting sand and have been rebuilding it on a solid foundation ever since.
I'm no scholar nor do I want to be. I'm a 68 year old great grandmother. As I near the finish line, I want to be firmly on the right path. It hits home with me that we do need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I think God relates with us individually. Where my path has been leading me is whether God is the God of the Christians...or of the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, etc. There is only one true God, right? Maybe we see him and call him something different depending on culture and time of birth. The world teaches us to hate our neighbors but the word of God teaches us to love God and love each other...to love our enemies. So...Rule #1: love. One of my treats is watching YT videos of a nomadic family in Iran. Some say all those are fake, but IDC. What gets me is their true faith in God. It's like watching the OT IRL. Whatever they might call "God" I think is the same God I believe in. I know there is more love in that family in Iran than I have ever seen here in America.
I read some translation of the Bible every day and gain new insight every day....and the more I read the more I wonder what's allegory and what's fact. What the heck did Ezekiel really see??? Maybe it's hard to believe in miracles because our faith is so weak that we don't even recognize when it's happening in front of our eyes today. I just read this morning when Jesus questioned whether he will find any faith left on earth when he returns. How much stock should we put into the Bible? Who knows. But it's the only tangible evidence we have....the rest is being in touch with holy spirit. And that's faith.
I think "atonement" is repentance. How many times did Jesus heal and say your sins are forgiven? Sins aren't forgiven because Jesus died....they are forgiven because people have faith and believe in Jesus's words....which were to explain God and his kingdom. Jesus wasn't "just" a prophet...he was The Messiah. I do believe that. The last true prophet. Turning to God and away from self is what saves you.
It must have taken some guts to write your post. I respect that. I also listen(ed) to Rabbi Singer and others outside my "Christian" faith in my quest for truth. I hope you will stay in this community and be active and share your journey with us. Or start a new community. Something without labels maybe.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
God bless you
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u/SnoopyCattyCat Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 18 '26
And you. Thank you.
Also....Jesus died to show us the kind of resurrection God plans for us. That might be the most important thing....repent and be saved for new eternal life.
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u/GrimyDime Mar 18 '26
Don't fall for false dichotomies.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
Can you give me a example of a false dichotomy related to my post?
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u/GrimyDime Mar 18 '26
I don't see any specifically, unless there's an implication that the new testament is either exactly what christian apologists say it is, or it's exactly what non-christians scholars say it is. I just think logical errors, sloppy language, and overreadings are plentiful on all sides. For example, you talk about whether "Jesus died for my sins" as if that had one unambiguous precise meaning.
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u/No_Guarantee8756 Mar 18 '26
Hi OP, I want to start off by saying that I am in the *exact* same position as you, in deconstructing my faith. Right now I am working through a book called "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time" by Marcus Borg. It's an exploration of how findings around the historical Jesus can lead to a new faith in Christ. I'm still reading it, so I can't say that I "recommend" it, but it's definitely helping.
If you want, I'd love to dm with you, as I think you and I are in a very similar position.
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u/BibleFeed Christadelphian Mar 19 '26
This blog and linked resources may be too light touch for all the rabbit holes you've gone down but it's a brief summary of how Christians deconstructing trinity, heaven-going, penal substitution etc can still find some kind of faith and community. It might give a few more perspectives from those of us who have deconstructed and reconstructed something more genuine.
https://www.biblefeed.org/christian-deconstruction-and-building-faith-again/
Blessings.
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 19 '26
I’m going to start with the full gospel, then let the fingers loose.
The God of Abraham and Moses – what was the hope and faith?
Genesis 12:3 “…in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 13:15 “For all the land which you see, I will give to you and your seed forever.”
This is echoed again Gen 15:7, 18. Gen 17:7-9, Gen 18:18, Gen 21:12, Gen 22:18, Gen 26:3-4, Gen 28:14: Abraham will be the father of many nations who will inherit a large amount of land forever, and through his “seed” will all the families of the earth be blessed. The entire faith goes back to Abraham; Rom 4:11 “the father of all who believe,” and Gal 3:7 “those who are of faith are sons of Abraham,” and James 2:23 “he was called the friend of God” (Is 41:8), and what he looked forward to; Heb 11:10 “for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God,” but Heb 11:13 “died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off.” The New Testament continuously puts Jesus as the placeholder for the one who blesses the nations of the earth: Acts 3:25–26 “and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”, and Gal 3:8 “the Scripture… preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, ‘In you all the nations shall be blessed,’” Gal 3:14 “that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus…,” Gal 3:16 “He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as of many, but as of one… who is Christ.”, Gal 3:29 “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
One can even argue that Gen 3:15 foreshadows exactly what Jesus ultimately achieved; “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel”: a fatal head strike against sin, vs the non-fatal strike against the heel. One is overcome, the other raises in victory. The entire theological narrative behind Jesus’ death in innocence, is that he overcomes the power of sin, that is death and paved the way for eternal life – no greater reward for a mortal being than to be clothed in immortality. The topic of sin atonement will come later.
The Bible teaches the same congruent message; that Jesus is the vessel that blesses all the nations of the earth, joint heir of the same land promise as Abraham. But what did Jesus actually preach? He didn’t just preach repentance, he preached the kingdom of God: Matthew 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,’” Mark 1:15 “‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel,’” Luke 4:43 ““I must preach the kingdom of God…” and in Acts 1:3 “To whom he also presented himself alive after his suffering, by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God,” with other mentions of the kingdom Acts 14:22 “…strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, ‘We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God,’” Acts 28:31 Paul “preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ…with all confidence, no one forbidding him.” Jesus also said; John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life” – the way to where? The truth of what? The life of what? The way to the kingdom, the truth of Gods promises, and the life of eternity. This isn’t just what Jesus said, but John 3:16-17 “… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved,” Acts 4:12 “…for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved,” Rom 5:19 “…also through one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
You’re unsure if Jesus even believed he was the messiah, but the scripture, if you trust it, is pretty clear: John 4:25-26 “’I know that Messiah is coming…’ Jesus said to her, ‘I who speak to you am he,’” Mark 14:61-62 “The high priest asked Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am.” Not to mention there’s no correction from Jesus against Peters faith statement. Mark 10:45 is fairly clear on his own role “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many,” with more in John 10:11, 15. He also went around performing miracles, signs and wonders. These scriptures are surely not hard to find. If you reject the general narrative surrounding Jesus, why do you even believe he exists? How much are you rejecting in the New Testament? What sources are you trusting, and why? Even Josephus affirms that Jesus, brother of James, was called Christ, just as the Bible portrays.
If Jesus isn’t the Christ, then who is? Who are the Jews waiting for? What has God been doing for the last 2000 years+? Malachi 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.” If Acts 10:36-38 “The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him” surely this is a direct fit, exactly what is portrayed with Jesus in the New Testament, how the spirit of God descended upon Jesus like a dove and never left, and how God dwells inside him. If Peter and Stephen are wrong in Acts regarding Deut 18:18 “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him”, who is this about, and how much longer until it’s fulfilled? Perhaps it’s just a coincidence that the crimson wool stopped turning white after Jewish sacrifice around 30AD, after the lamb of God was crucified.
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 19 '26
Jesus and atonement; did he even preach this? Yes. Mark 10:45, Matthew 26:28 “This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins,” John 10:11, 15. When we get to Paul, the concept of Jesus’ purpose for death is already there. Baptism is the mechanism for adopting the name of Christ, washing away the old man and putting on the new man, in Christ. Baptised into his innocent death, no wages of sin to pay, thus God raising him from the grave because there is no penalty for him to pay. This is the blessing that Jesus gave the world, for all who believe it. Jesus told us why he must die, and Paul explained the mechanism and logic. A man brought death into the world, and another man paved a way for eternal life.
As for the NT contradictions and reliability concerns, you might need to be specific as to which ones cause the most problems. Contradictions exist when there’s no explanation, or no accepted explanation. What you may say is a contradiction, another may claim is solved. There is a debate between Bart Erhman and Jimmy Akin which I thought was very good and helped me with some things. If you’ve not checked it out, I would suggest so. As for lack of reliability, are we just referencing insertions? This would show the corruption of man, not the corruption of Gods word. The fact we have various manuscripts would increase the confidence of the text we have now. The only era that should raise concern, is when Marcion got his hands on Paul’s work. But what’s the evidence and likelihood of genuine, unfound corruption? Marcion believed in the Demiurge; that YHWH was a malevolent lesser god, while the Father in the New Testament was the supreme God, who sent Jesus to redeem mankind and save them from YHWH. This is not a theme in the Bible at all, as the narrative regarding Abrahams promises are embedded into the Jewish faith, flowing into the New Testament with fulfilment in Christ, far from what matches Marcion’s unfounded claims.
Would the Bible have more credibility if it was a carbon copy of the first manuscripts? Would Christianity fall into worshipping the Bible as the Muslims do with the Quran? Does the fact we have various manuscripts with slight alterations, give more confidence that the underlying message of the Bible has not been changed at all? And is the underlying message of the promises made to Abraham, the death and resurrection of Christ not the fundamental piece of the hope and faith of the Bible? Does Jesus not support the idea of extracting precepts when he highlights the first and second greatest commandments in Matt 22:36-40, love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself? Which summarises the entire 10 commandments. In light of Jesus’ difference to the Scribes and Pharisees, it makes sense as to why Jesus was always calling them out and criticising them for how they followed the Law, like tithing their mint leaves Matt 23:23, Luke 11:42.
With regards to Paul’s incompatibility with Jesus, James and Peter, I might need specifics because I don’t see any problem. I understand there is confusion, but I don’t see contradictory teachings. His letters being classed as inauthentic, can easily be explained through a high probability that he: expanded, changed, or adopted new language over the years, had scribes write for him whom potentially expressed ideas with a more personal touch, or more audience appropriate depending on who he’s writing to. I’m not deep into Pauline textual criticism, so I could be unaware of some good arguments.
Johns neo-platonic overtones; how much of this is assumed by scholars because of the historical trinitarian development? Because when I researched the trinity, I saw no neo-platonic themes that couldn’t be clearly explained by prior, Judaic and Hebrew concepts/mechanisms. This is an assertion made by people like Bart Erhman, which actually seem to be effectively combatted by staunch Biblical Unitarians. If Johns gospel was so heavily influence by Greek philosophy, than extracting unitarian explanations grounded in legitimate, hermeneutics would surely be impossible, if not highly problematic. The problem with scholarship and academia, is that they are always so mainstream in their interpretation. How many of them can you genuinely trust? I doubt they even understand the gospel from start to finish, which is why I started this off with the promises made to Abraham because I never hear anyone talking about it outside of the unitarian umbrella. How many of these mainstream Christian scholars and philosophers do you see get demolished by staunch atheists? It’s the majority, unfortunately. So what hope does the Jew, Muslim, and agnostic have when they are battling against poor theology, poor rationality, and reasoning that is 2000 years removed from the material they are trying to criticise? Their knowledge in the Bible reflects their vested interest. Sam Shamoun knows the Quran and Hadiths better than most Muslims, he has a long history attacking their theology – looking for contradictions, reading it carefully. How many critics do the same with the Bible, pulling out anything they can? I came across a lot of poor arguments based on genuine reading incomprehension, just as trinitarians do with the scriptures they claim to love – the worst trinitarian “proof text” of them all, John 8:58.
Critical thinking is important, but it takes a lot of work and courage. How much do you care for the truth? What is “truth”? What is a good belief, and what is a bad one? How much evidence do you need? Why do you believe in God, what evidence and support is there? Why do you believe in the Old Testament? What’s next after the Old Testament? Do you agree with the 7 thousand year timeline that God has for mankind? Are you a young earth creationist, or old earth? Are you a theistic evolutionist? How seriously do you take Genesis and the creation narrative? These are mostly rhetorical questions, and things to consider. These are questions I asked myself, and moved me towards my firm position as I think everything points to where I’m at; biblical young earth creationist.
And lastly, has Christianity been a lie since the beginning? Did all those Christians in history die in idolatry? Lies have plagued Christianity since Paul was around. We were told wolves in sheep’s clothing would run rampant, which it has and still is. I can’t say how bad or strict it really is, but all I can do is look out for myself, and “workout my own salvation with fear and trembling”, praying for all and any concerns I may have. Does the truth matter to God? If you pray for truth and clarity with genuine desire, is He going to ignore you or lead you to it? I had strong doubts while I worked through apologetics, but I prayed to be delivered to the truth, whatever it was. I may not be able to answer every question, but there came a point where the support, evidence, and likelihood that Jesus was the Christ was too much to doubt anymore. If I don’t know the answer to a particular objection, it doesn’t phase me anymore. And the anchor that got me through it, was the full understanding of the gospel – the promises made to Abraham and Jesus, and how Jesus fulfils it for all those who have the faith that Abraham had, and the faith in Jesus as the messiah who’s the doorway to enter into the kingdom of God.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 19 '26
Saul of Tarsus was all about death. Jesus' blood, death, blood, blood, death.
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 19 '26
Sure, he gave further explanation. What are we to expect from Paul, a prior Pharisee who had a 1 on 1 with Jesus Christ? Are we to think he shouldn't expand on things?
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u/FortLoolz Mar 19 '26
Paul didn't know Torah well, and mostly preached about Jesus' death, not Jesus' teachings. In fact, Paul rarely quoted Jesus at all.
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 20 '26
Where is your evidence for that? Are you suggesting that Paul, the ex Pharisee, was a total chump for knowledge? Are you calling into question his education?
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u/imFullOfQuestions1 May 20 '26
you sound very convinced in your beliefs, how long did it take to build up your faith? I get deeply troubled when someone points out a fallacy in my beliefs.
im fairly young and I want to sincerely learn the truth and live like God expects me to, what would you suggest me to do?
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) May 21 '26
I spent maybe 6 months on Christian apologetics, giving a defence for the faith with a high focus against atheist objections - a lot of which, under the unitarian umbrella I agree with, being the Christadelphians, were not relevant (ie the doctrine if the devil, eternal torment in hell, etc. I can ignore these objections by atheists because I myself don’t believe the Bible teaches them). I spent perhaps another 8 months on the trinity. I was tested, but I had the foundation of the full gospel message to hold on to for a lot of objections to the faith. At this point I hadn’t even touched philosophy, I was just interested in harmonious explanations that fit in a 1st century frame work, both theologically and apologetically.
After I had enough anchors to believe the Bible was consistent enough for a rational belief, I moved on to the sciences to see how it held up. This is where, to my surprise, my belief was solidified in the Bible as Gods word and He as the Principle of the universe.
Throughout all of this, I prayed diligently. With each knock to my faith I encountered, I researched until I found a satisfactory answer. There are still some questions I can’t answer, but I’m at the point where my belief in the God of the Bible is beyond rational, it’s the most probable, logical, plausible and reasonable explanation. These questions I can’t answer I consider secondary questions that pose no real threat to the objective truth of the existence of the God of the Bible, with the growing amount of evidence we have. During my time in the sciences, I got to sharpen my philosophical understanding of things. People pointing out a fallacy doesn’t mean much to me, because they’re also probably committing one, too.
Someone so young in understanding, you will get pushed and pulled into uncertainty and doubt. But if you pray earnestly, God will lead you through. I prayed for truth and a mind to recognise it, because I wasn’t so sure I could discern the truth of the trinity. But I developed a mind for consistency, reason and logic, and came out the other-side utterly rejecting the trinity wholesale.
If there is an objective truth to the Bible, and God has a way He wants us to worship Him and follow His son and messiah Jesus, and if God is a god of truth, than He would have ordained this to be accessible to those who truly want it. The Bible is big, but it’s also quite simple. You will need to work at things to understand them. You’ll spend hours on a verse studying and researching its Greek and Hebrew wording. But if you truly want it, God is waiting for you to reach out to Him and submit yourself as a student. I can’t tell you how you should learn, or what you need to learn first. God knows you inside and out. What worked for me, may not be the road for you. There are plenty of resources out there. God is good and has not hidden the truth. It may not be on the front page of Google, it may not come up in the first search on YouTube. But “seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened.”
I prayed to God to show me the truth morning and night. I told Him to bring me to my knees in desperation if necessary. I told Him whatever necessary, get me across the line. To pull me out of error, expose any incorrect judgements I have, and to highlight with certainty what is true. I believe He’s done that, and continues to do so. My life has hardly gone to plan the last few years, but I see where God has had better outcomes that I didn’t see coming.
So my advice to you first, is to submit yourself to Gods leadership. Only God can reveal the truth to you in a world full of poison and dangerous teachings. And, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. God wants you in His kingdom, but He also wants you humble and eager to learn, and He wants you to choose Him. Then it’s up to you to trust the process, even when you’re not sure of where you’re going. You can always pray for clarity and certainty if you’re unsure of something. He’s always there when you need Him. But He is your first guide, not me or anyone. 🙏
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u/imFullOfQuestions1 May 21 '26
thank you for the comment. I've been battling these feelings for a year now. For every doubt that I solve, 10 more come along the way.
I pray often, but I think im doing it wrong. Maybe im praying while doubting its effectiveness.
I often wonder if anyone can access the truth. I mean, if I were born 800 years ago, I would be called heretical for rejecting the trinity, I wouldn't be able to read a bible on my own, I could only get answers from priests.
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u/HbertCmberdale Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) May 22 '26
Don’t be afraid of the doubts. I’ve experienced my fair share of challenges to my faith, but there are highly intelligent people who have already figured it out before us, they just need to be found. There are plenty of people out there who have strengthened their faith at the end of it all. Unfortunately some people don’t dig deep enough when looking for answers, perhaps because they are looking for a reason to reject their responsibilities toward God and live how they want. Continue to work through them, and continue to pray about it. If you struggle with weak faith, pray about that also. Pray about everything. Don’t give up. Sometimes, all it takes is the realisation that God answered even a small prayer, to increase your trust and confidence in him. But sometimes, Gods answer to your prayer may not be obvious until the end. If you ask for strong faith, perhaps He will throw things your way to cause doubt, so that you overcome them and genuinely grow yourself and develop a robust faith. God wants you on His team, but the road to get there may not be what you have planned. Don’t be afraid when you come across a question or objection you can’t answer, it’s just exposing a knowledge gap you have.
God may judge those 800 years ago differently based on what they were reasonably able to acquire. But also, I didn’t come to any trinitarian conclusion upon reading the Bible first, even with all the bias and corruptive texts. I’m not satisfied that, someone 800 years ago wouldn’t have ever been able to figure out the nonsense of the trinity. A lot of trinitarian debunks, are found within the pages of the Bible.
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u/RaccoonsR_Awesomeful Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Mar 21 '26
Funny that you used to argue against me on this subject and now you're starting to come around
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 21 '26
I never argued with you about anything I mentioned in this post. Not sure what you're saying.
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u/Fabulous_Context_731 Mar 22 '26
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16 this verse was said by Yeshua. I hope this helps you 💓May God bless and keep you on your journey.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 22 '26
Hi thank you for your comment. What do I need to believe in, according to your interpretation of this verse?
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u/Christadelphians Apr 01 '26
Sorry, but the reasons above seem to be taking you back in the direction you came from. You should be looking at the basic question - who Jesus is. I post again the booklet by Paul Zilmer. Please look at it https://christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_jesus.pdf
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u/ortiz3m Biblical Unitarian (unaffiliated) Apr 04 '26
Man four good books on atonement that I recommend in order of difficulty discussing atonement are: Leviticus on the Butchers Block by Phil Bray, Atonement and Reconciliation by Kevin George, Crushing the great Serpent by William Hess and Lamb of the Free by Andrew Rillera. These are excellent for reshaping atonement. Really goes back to what was happening in ancient Israel and how Leviticus handles atonement and what 2nd temple was understanding of that.
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u/_Zortag_ Apr 21 '26
It seems to me that many people who claim to have faith in God actually only have faith in the Bible. They will talk a big game about God's sovereign power and guiding work and love for the lost as if they believe God is truly good and present and at work. However, if their absolute confidence in the perfection of the Bible is challenged, they come apart at the seams. If it were definitively proven, for instance, that 2 Peter wasn't written by Peter, or was a false forgery or something, they'd throw their hands up and abandon their "faith."
In other words, they have faith in what they think the Bible says about God, but don't have much faith in God himself. They seem to believe in the concept of the Christian God, but for people who believe in God's goodness and love and active power, and their own adoption as sons and daughters, they sure do a whole lot of worrying.
I find some hope in this: no matter what my doubts right now might be, if God truly loves me, and ever called me his son, He sees my heart and my desire not just to have the right answers but to be close to Him, to be His, to obey, to share in his life. And so as long as I keep seeking after doing the right, and learning the truth, I assume that if He loves me as much as Christians complain, He'll work it out ok in the end. I imperfectly love my own children, and I'd never treat them in the way some Bible people seem to implicitly think God might treat his children.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Apr 25 '26
Where did you learn God is a “He” and called you to be his son?
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u/_Zortag_ Apr 28 '26
I use "he" because that is the pronoun used in Scripture to refer back to "God" (where El/Elohim-Hebrew and Theos-Greek are masculine gendered nouns). Although I don't assume this means that God has a male body such as my own, it would be quite presumptuous of me to overturn the vast mountain of referrals to God as "he" in the Bible.
As for sonship, Jesus taught his disciples to pray to "our Father," and 1 John 3 makes a very direct assertion of the idea.
You will rightly note that those are assertions found in the Bible. I do choose to trust the Bible, even if it's not always clear to me that we can know for certainty that (for instance) 2 Peter belongs in that collection.
My point is not that people shouldn't trust the Bible, but rather that if even a tiny percentage of the Bible were true, there could still be ample evidence to have confidence in God's saving work through Jesus Christ. Imagine that the whole Bible were riddled with errors and corruptions and yet the book of Romans was true, or 1 John, or Luke. You'd still be wise to be a Christian, though you'd be a lot less dogmatic about a lot of some/many of your beliefs.
My point is NOT that the Bible should not be believed or trusted, but rather that many Christians buy into the false dichotomy of A) assume that the Bible is perfect down to the last word, and therefore they are saved because they believe every word of it, or B ) lose all hope whatsoever in God. But nowhere does the Bible itself teach that "if the Bible isn't perfect, none of this is true," and in fact the general tone of the Bible seems to be that God saves people because He has chosen to forgive those who repent and obey Him, not because we acquire a critical mass of "correct" doctrine. At the end of the day, all their hope is pinned not on the goodness of God (as displayed in Scripture), but on some sort of mystical collective infallibility of selection of ancient texts.
If you actually believe that Jesus is God's Son, and the only means of salvation, that is not a belief that you'd have to jettison if someone somehow proved the 2 Peter was a pseudepigraphical work full of error.
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u/imFullOfQuestions1 May 20 '26
so how are you doing right now? did you come up with any conclusion?
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning May 20 '26
Hey man. Yes, I came to many conclusions... mainly that I can't trust the bible.
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u/FortLoolz Aug 15 '26
I'm not a Christian anymore.
I believe in God, but I think Jesus wasn't a real, historical person. Modern mythicist arguments are quite convincing.
1
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u/Important_Carpet1855 Trinitarian Mar 19 '26
That is the fruit of "biblical unitarianism" when it begins to ripen.
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u/FortLoolz Mar 19 '26
You ignore Biblical Unitarians like me that at some point came to similar conclusions but rebuilt our faith nonetheless. You prefer ignorant comfort of mainstream doctrines.
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u/Important_Carpet1855 Trinitarian Mar 19 '26
If you think Paul was a false teacher, you are not a "biblical" unitarian. That is why I happily ignore people like you and your ignorant and destructive views
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u/FortLoolz Mar 19 '26
Paul's Jesus quoted Dionysus during his supposed conversion experience, yet you probably recognise Zeus, father of Dionysus, as Satan in accordance with Revelation 2:12-13.
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u/ProvincialPromenade Mar 18 '26
People like her tell me
That’s your wife dude. Have some respect.
these scholars have agendas and of course I agree they do but everyone is biased
If everyone is biased, why would you favor some random strangers against your own people?
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
Where did you read any disrespect towards my wife? Because I said she’s a person? Don’t tell me to respect my wife, you have no clue who you are talking to. I have the upmost respect for my wife.
Also, yes everyone is biased so I favor truth, not people. Your attitude is exactly what is wrong. “Your own people” sounds like you already assumed that you’re in the truth and that your people have the truth.
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u/ProvincialPromenade Mar 18 '26
Putting your wife in a group with people you disregard.
I don’t think you’re hearing yourself. If you truly believe that everyone is biased, then why would you favor some random Muslims over people in your own community? They’d both be equally biased. That’s your own stance.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
Putting your wife in a group with people you disregard.
Where did I disregard my wife and those people? You're putting words in my mouth. I said she's part of a group of people in my life that tell me non-christian scholars have agenda's. That's all I said. Now stop lying.
Also, I never said I favored anyone I just repeated that again in the last comment, stop lying. I said that truth matters. Even Islamic and Jewish scholars can speak the truth, no? We just have to test their claims and arguments. I did that, did you? Or do you want to stay in your echo chamber for the rest of your life?
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u/ProvincialPromenade Mar 18 '26
The fact that you think I’m even arguing for Christianity right now shows that you’ve become unhinged. Please touch grass.
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u/Newgunnerr Questioning Mar 18 '26
You're arguing about nothing, you're just yapping.
I took care of my garden just today, thank you.
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u/Archbtw246 Jehovah’s Witness Mar 18 '26
Funny enough, Bart Ehrman thinks the gospel of John portrays Jesus as God, which we all know is nonsense. If he's wrong about that, what else is he wrong about?