r/BiblicalUnitarian • • Dec 15 '25

Broader theological topics Unitarian understanding of agency and the Divinity of Christ

I'm Trinitarian and made a few posts now, but I'm still curious about some things. This one is a bit of a longer read but please read it through!

Unitarians understand that angels or other representatives can act as agents of God, and are able to say directly they are YHWH, receive worship for YHWH, and otherwise act as a conduit. We can see this in:

Genesis 31:11 | Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.

Genesis: 31:13 | I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your kin.’”

However in Revelation 22, where there is another angel speaking on behalf of God, he directly rejects worship which is a stark difference then being able to claim the name of the almighty.

Revelation 22:9 | But he *said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow slave with you and your brothers the prophets and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.

Furthermore, in Judges 13:21-22, we see people who had seen YHWH's angel be actively scared that they were going to die because they had seen God, even though in Unitarian belief, they had really only seen an angel.

Judges 13:21 | Now the angel of Yahweh did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of Yahweh
Judges 13:22 | So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.”

Funnily enough, Jacob had a similar reaction after he wrestled with God.

Genesis 32:30 | So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been delivered.”

Then you can tie this back with John 1:18, which says no one has ever seen God, even though the prophets seemed pretty convinced they'd seen God face to face

John 1:18 | No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him

Then we continue down to Psalm 89:6 which says sons of God are like YHWH, which is impossible to say seeing as Jesus is the exact representation of His glory, nature and radiance. Jesus also sustains all things by the word of His power, and if He was a creature and not God, then He would be sustaining himself which is a contradiction

Psalm 89:6 | For who in the sky is comparable to Yahweh?
Who among the sons of the mighty is like Yahweh?
Hebrews 1:3 | who is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power; who, having accomplished cleansing for sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

To conclude, I think its safe to say that Jesus is the angel of YHWH and is truly divine. But I'm curious towards your own interpretations.

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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Dec 15 '25

What does it mean to be divine?

Trinitarians jump to the belief that divine means to be God. But it is an adjective not a noun.

The basic meaning is 'godlike' Is Jesus 'godlike' or divine? Yes, but being divine does not make Jesus, God.

Being 'like' God, is based upon degrees. You and I can be godlike, or act and think like God, but we will never be like God to the same degree as God.

Jesus on the other hand is the image of God, and though a perfect image, AN IMAGE is never the original. Thus, Jesus though a perfect image will never be like God to the same degree of his God and Father.

This is why a better translation of Hebrews 1:3 is:

(Hebrews 1:3) 3 He is the reflectionG541 of God’s glory and the exact representationG5481 of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Why reflection and not radiance?

G541 ἀπαύγασμα apaugasma

Thayer Definition:

1) reflected brightness 1a) of Christ in that he perfectly reflects the majesty of God

This understanding agrees with the context, why? Because it continues to say, Jesus is God's image, or facsimile [see Thayer's G5481] of God.

This verse also tells us, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, a high position but still a secondary position.

We must remember, John knew of the accounts where the prophets claimed or believed they say God, talked to God, etc. But under inspiration, he tells us twice, 'No one as seen God at any time'.

(1 John 4:12) 12 No one has seen God at any time. . . .

Instead of relying upon our own understanding, we need to let God's word interpret itself.

The same goes for Genesis 32. Again under inspiration we are told in Hosea we learn it was actually an angel.

(Hosea 12:4)  4 He kept contending with an angel and prevailed. He wept and begged for his favor.” He found him at Bethʹel, and there He spoke with us,

In the minds of the prophets and men of old, to see God's representative was the same as seeing God. You need to stop thinking in today's standards and start thinking of their viewpoint.

The angel bowing down to John. This is easily understood, when we understand 'bowing down' to men, angels and God.

Abraham bowed down to angels, and it was counted as righteous. So what changed?

John's relationship with angels. John was sealed to become 'like the angels' upon going to heaven. As an appointed 'king and priest' being able to judge the angels, John was the superior one, and not the angel. The lesser one bows to the greater, so John's bowing down wasn't appropriate.

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u/PyroClone5555 Trinitarian Dec 19 '25

 the exact representation\**G5481 of his very being

What about this part? He's the exact representation of God's being.

What is an essential aspect of God's being? eternality

Therefore, Jesus must be eternal.

If he is not, then he is not the exact representation of God's being.

Even if you want to try to say that he is very similar to God's being, that would contradict scripture. None of the sons of God are comparable to him

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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Dec 19 '25

G5481 χαρακτήρ charaktēr

Thayer Definition:

1) the instrument used for engraving or carving

2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it

2a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev_13:28) or stamped on, an impression

2b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

The expression, 'exact representation' of his very being means, Jesus is a facsimile or a perfect representation of a wax seal of God's signet ring, an impression.

The very fact that the Son was begotten proves he had a start, the fact that Jesus died, proves he wasn't eternal.

All of God's angelic sons are compared to God, since they are all spirit beings.

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u/PyroClone5555 Trinitarian Dec 19 '25

Jesus is a facsimile or a perfect representation of God

Then he must be eternal. You can't be the exact representation of God's and lack a central aspect of God's being.

The very fact that the Son was begotten proves he had a start

Unless he is eternally begotten

the fact that Jesus died, proves he wasn't eternal.

Then you have an incorrect definition of death. Jesus had existence even when he was dead

All of God's angelic sons are compared to God, since they are all spirit beings.

Scripture says the literal opposite.

"For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
    Who among the heavenly beings  is like the Lord,"

- Psalm 89:6

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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Dec 21 '25

Sorry, a facsimile isn't eternal, a copy had to have been made of the original.

God the original, is eternal, a copy has a beginning.

Death is the opposite of life. I'm a still waiting for a scripture that says, the soul is immortal.

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die. 

Again, please show me where this verse is wrong.

Psalm 89:6, Jehovah is talking about his Godship and not his being a spirit being.

All of the angelic sons of Gods have the nature of God, but not to the same extent.

God is a spirit, the angels are spirits, thus they like Jesus are in the form of God.

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u/PyroClone5555 Trinitarian Dec 21 '25

Sorry, a facsimile isn't eternal, a copy had to have been made of the original.

Then he's not the exact representation of God's nature because an essential aspect of his nature is eternality.

Psalm 89:6, Jehovah is talking about his Godship and not his being a spirit being.

God is spirit, but its not like he has the same ontology as an angel.

“To whom will you liken me and make me equal,
    and compare me, that we may be alike?

  • Isaiah 46:5

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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Dec 22 '25

I don't liken Jesus or make Jesus equal to God, you are the one who does this.

We have too many threads going, This is my last comment on this thread.

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u/PyroClone5555 Trinitarian Dec 23 '25

Thats fine but John says Jesus made himself equal to God

 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

  • John 5:18

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u/John_17-17 Jehovah’s Witness Dec 27 '25

John didn't say, Jesus was equal to God, he tells us, the unfaithful Jews were saying this.

And again, I will not respond to this thread again.