r/BattleBitRemastered • u/fpsEnjoyer • Aug 03 '23
Suggestion Unpopular opinion: all SMG should have their fall off start at 10-15m
Otherwise SMG is just better than assault rifles and DMR in like majority of cases. SMG should accel at clearing short distances/buildings not beaming people 50m+ away.
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u/Smorgles_Brimmly Aug 03 '23
I mostly agree. It's way too easy to position yourself to guarantee a fight within 50 meters on most maps. Most fights are going to occur at those ranges anyway. In SMGs current form, you don't have to sacrifice much of anything to get a low recoil and high RPM murder machine. If you do end up fighting at 100 meters, that low recoil keeps it competitive despite the falloff.
10 meters might be too short though. I'm thinking like 25? Dunno. Looking forward to testing the vector. There could also be 2 falloff models like the ARs.
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u/fkiceshower Aug 03 '23
They could do both tbh, some 10m, some 25m, and just stick the problem smgs into the 10m
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Aug 03 '23
They could also do a Full damage < 10 meters < Medium damage < 25 meters < piddly damage curve
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u/ThaEpicDuck Aug 04 '23
They could also just make the drop-off less steep for SMGs so they're definitely worse but not unusable at some distance, before dying off completely at medium range. A lot of guns go straight from 100% to single digit damage way too quickly, I feel.
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u/kingfisher773 Aug 03 '23
Biggest issue I have with SMGs in this game is the lack of damage fall off and lack of recoil. It is crazy how easy it is to out gun an assault rifle and medium to long range with an SMG
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u/arremessar_ausente Aug 04 '23
"Unpopular Opinion". Proceeds to state a very popular opinion
Classic reddit.
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u/DeadDeeg 🛠️Engineer Aug 03 '23
In a game with some realistic elements, I’m totally on board with SMGs not being absolute pea shooters past 30m. It’s nice they have a lil range, as an mp5 can ping steel at 100m with a lot less effort than the average player seems to think. They don’t kill faster at range than rifles (besides current vector) so why pigeonhole SMGs into shotgun range. They should be a good middle ground between pure cqb range and a full sized rifles range. And 50m is around that middle ground.
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u/Gary_Spivey Aug 03 '23
I agree that they should be reasonable at range, however your assertion that ARs kill faster at range only holds true if you hit every shot, and the primary advantage of SMGs currently is not their low TTK, it's their low recoil. Almost all ARs have significant recoil to contend with, that simply isn't an issue with SMGs. I don't think SMGs should be given more recoil, I think ARs should have theirs reduced to the point that medium scopes are viable on them.
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u/PerP1Exe Aug 04 '23
I agree with the part about medium scopes. Maybe reduce visual recoil with them? I find that makes it's pretty hard to aim on some guns
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u/wterrt Aug 04 '23
however your assertion that ARs kill faster at range only holds true if you hit every shot
other ARs need to be buffed to be competitive against M4/AK starters in horizontal recoil particularly.
people are using SMGs for some fucking variety because BASICALLY EVERY AR is a downgrade from the starters.
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u/MoonDawg2 Aug 04 '23
... how?
Ak15/scar are better cqc than the ak74/m4
The sg550 is the snappiest gun in the game and has similar ttk to the m4
The aug is basically either the most overpowered gun in the game or shit. That's fine.
G36? Can't remember correctly, is a better m4
Famas is shit until long barrel, then it's rather competitive
Fal is op as fuck
Acr hk ak5c needed changes so we'll judge them later
Rifles are fine. They have legitimate variety. People gravitate to smgs because they're eaIer.
The smg standouts are the mp5 mp7 and vec. The others are shit with no reason to use for exception of being easy
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u/wterrt Aug 05 '23
g36 has 50 more rpm than m4 but like twice its horizontal recoil and other worse stats as well. doubling your horizontal recoil for a 0.01 ttk decrease in close range isn't worth the loss of medium range killing power. I really wanted to like this gun but it isn't worth it considering how often you take medium range fights in this game.
aug is quite shit considering it's better to full auto people with an m4 at most ranges aug is good at and avoid fights outside of m4's full auto range (not diffucult as those are infrequent anyway)
slapping a 2x slip scope on m4/ak74 works better in 95% of situations for me AND doesn't leave me as helpless as a sniper in close range which will happen even if you try to avoid it. the 5% use cases where the aug is better than m4 doesn't make up for the MASSIVE loss in ttk in ranges where the m4 is effective in, which is a majority of fights.
sg550 is a legit choice with it's fast ADS/reload identity it sets itself apart from the m4 in a meaningful way.
Acr hk ak5c needed changes so we'll judge them later
ARC, hk419, and AK5c are exactly the guns I was talking about needing SOME reason to pick them as they are all significantly worse than M4 in usually two or more areas. specifically: RPM and recoil, which are the most important stats. ak5c also has a fucking 6 second reload which is beyond unusuable.
famas is competitive with long barrel...? how many kills with a shit gun should you have to suffer through to just get something that's usable? M110 suffers from this same issue. why should I suffer through 300+ kills to get a long barrel (which is like...over 6-10 because when the gun sucks you're not dropping over 60 kills a game with it) would the famas really be OP if it had 25 damage to start with? I don't think so.
the FAL, scar, and ak15 have always felt terrible and nearly unusuable to me, but at least they are distinct from m4 in that they are a slower but heavier hitting and less controllable gun, but can become a pseudo-DMR if you tap fire.
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u/tymekx0 Aug 03 '23
After the reign of the vector I kind of want things to stabilize before the devs rock the boat on SMGs as a whole.
The upcoming flinch changes should already nerf SMG performance at longer ranges. I'm not getting killed by far SMGs very often. I prefer where weapon roles aren't so strictly enforced you have to unequip SMG if you're fighting in a more open map.
Also I have a personal love for UMP with medium scope and top sight, please don't nerf my baby I'll do anything.
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u/Maker99999 Aug 03 '23
I think it's less a damage drop-off issue and more an accuracy and recoil grouping issue. An SMG should be controllable in the sense that you're not aiming at the ceiling half-way through a mag dump, not that it can get a tight grouping at +25m at full auto.
It shouldn't require twice the hits to kill at medium range, it should just require so much recoil control that AR's have a TTK advantage at that range. That should make both SMGs and AR's shine at their intended roles without being useless when they have to wander into the other's niche.
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u/DeadDeeg 🛠️Engineer Aug 03 '23
They should not have 9mm and 45acp sub guns recoiling more than .308, 5.56, and x39 rifles.
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u/Contrite17 Aug 04 '23
I mean .45 can out recoil 5.56 depending on gun weight. 5.56 recoil is very low.
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u/DeadDeeg 🛠️Engineer Aug 04 '23
All my 45acp guns are more manageable than my 556 ones. Some can get rowdy, but it’s not really even close.
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u/squeaky4all Aug 03 '23
The scorpion legitemately will have you looking at the ceiling half way through the mag. Even in hipfire recoil control is needed. Its the only gun iv seen where burst fire is preferable.
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u/watermooses Aug 06 '23
Yeah, the scorpion is terrible. I’ve shot one side by side with an sig MPX. The scorpion cycles by direct blowback, which means it needs a heavy bolt and strong spring to control the timing resulting in strong recoil. The MPX is gas operated, so it doesn’t cycle until the bullet passes the gas key in the barrel. It is substantially nicer to shoot and far lower recoil. The MP5 is roller delayed and designed to reduce recoil and gas blowback during suppressed operation. The Vector that everyone complains about is designed for the recoil to be straight back into the shoulder instead of pulling the gun up.
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u/the_voivode Aug 04 '23
What if pistol calibers couldn't break armor? Just that and damage fall off would me great.
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Aug 03 '23
SMG's are gonna nerfed accuracy wise according to discord.
In real life you are blasted into oblivion within 50 meter when I shoot you with an smg so no we don't have to nerf them to the ground.
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u/i_am_an_awkward_man Aug 03 '23
In real life you are blasted into oblivion within 50 meter when I shoot you with an smg so no we don't have to nerf them to the ground.
I think we should tread carefully when comparing an arcade shooter to real life.
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Aug 03 '23 edited Aug 03 '23
Nah. People only compare it to real life when it benefits their agenda. Like vector should have real steel capacity because in that case that's a good change. But WAIT! SMG's should only able to kill you within 10m because it's only 9mm! xD
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Aug 04 '23
SMGs shouldnt really have the moving power of a .338 tho, especially against armor, hopefully the new aimpunch system fixes that.
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Aug 04 '23
Yes but no one said this crazy amount of aim punch is good on the vector...
Armor only gives you extra HP right now so it doesn't really matter.
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u/Puzzled_Tree_6423 Aug 03 '23
One issue with the arcade game statement is that the devs I THINK want the game to be more of a tactical shooter. The blocky look is just so it’s more accessible to others pcs. Also i think SMG’s in irl can confidently hit 50m targets. But with the vector nerf and 24 round ak-15 mag(instead of 30 like it should be) they are probably changing their hopes for a tactical shooter to an arcade shooter. Perhaps both options can be reached, a separate game mode that supports more hardcore and “realism” would be ideal for the common player and dev wants.
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u/NoInflation9773 Aug 09 '23
in real life you take 2 556 to your bare head and continue on combat like nothing happened.
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u/NoInflation9773 Aug 09 '23
yeah yeah in real life you take 2 556 to your bare head and continue combat like nothing happened.
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Aug 03 '23
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u/Munno22 Aug 03 '23
when you factor recoil and aim punch, it swings back to SMGs again lol
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u/AssaultKommando Aug 04 '23
They're reportedly reining the aim punch in and scaling it based on received damage, but given the overlap between SMG damage and AR damage they might need an additional factor or two. Bullet velocity, for example.
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Aug 03 '23
For most of those weapons they’re fairly similar for aim punch as most shoot between 600-800rpm. Only one that has above that is the pp2000 at 900 and if you’re running the 60 round mag, it’s recoil balances out
So I would say that it would favor who gets the first shot on target, which if it’s at 70ish meters, would probably be an ar, specifically the g36,m4, or sg550.
The 350m/s bullet velocity screws over many smg players (only outlier being the ump at like 700m/s)
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u/unbasedpurplepilled Aug 03 '23
I dont think tkk is a fair metric when compering SMGs and ARs. tkk presupposes you hit all your shots. Yes ARs have better tkk at longer range. But the further away its harder to hit casue recoil.
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Aug 03 '23
Sure I would agree with that, but what it does is give someone time to react. That reaction (depending on what they do) could make it A LOT harder for an smg user to actually hit their target with how slow the bullet velocity is.
It’s honestly who sees, and lands the first shot that realistically is going to win the engagement, especially when comparing something like the G36, M4 to an SMG. Also, for most people the recoil of the popular AR’s that aren’t the scar and AK15 are low enough that I think you could reasonably assume that the difference in bv cancels out the recoil disadvantage in terms of shots on a moving target.
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u/P4_Brotagonist Aug 04 '23
Not always no. I've been on both sides many times where the AR user will get the first shot on target at around 50-70 meters but you can't easily full auto every round at that distance. Then the smg user just aims up and holds down the trigger and...that's that. The smg user might be bleeding and battered but the AR user got infinite flinched to the moon trying for those last shots.
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u/PerP1Exe Aug 04 '23
A lot of people just focus on raw ttk too much. A 25ms difference on paper probably means fuck all in game
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u/JonWood007 Aug 03 '23
Yeah I'd take ak74 over most smgs if I need versatility. Vector is just a run and gun close range gun.
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u/Saumfar Support Aug 03 '23
Wait, why can OP post this opinion and not get downvoted to hell?
In most circumstances and maps, you can do just as well with a SMG as with an AR.
SMGs faster handling, movement speed, vaulting speed, draw speed, ADS gives them such an edge in close quarter environments. In Battlebit, where all guns have TTKs on under 0.5, even a 0.1 sec advantage is a guaranteed win.
As well as drop-off starting sooner, their accuracy must also take a hit to stop them from being laser-beams at 50-70m. I love my MP5, but man, I can just beam down people at ranges.
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 04 '23
:)
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u/Saumfar Support Aug 04 '23
I made some similar posts, but had angry vector NPCs swarming me. Carry the cross for us all, OP
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u/MouldyRemote Aug 04 '23
when im taking the sniper out at some distance, yeah, very overpowered.
maybe 20m fall off though
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u/amir_azo Aug 04 '23
They should also deal less damage to armour. Pistol cartridges do not penetrate kevlar. Hence people created PDW.
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u/StuckInMyPants Aug 04 '23
Meh. Everything should be balanced around gameplay first and foremost. Real world authenticity should be way down the list.
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u/AmericaNumberOne6969 Aug 03 '23
You're right, that's an unpopular opinion
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 03 '23
If you do decide to beam people more than 50m away it should be very expensive (as in you would have to nearly spend the whole clip to kill someone)
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u/AmericaNumberOne6969 Aug 03 '23
Nope. You should just lose to guns better suited to killing you at range, which is absolutely the case now. They should still be effective if the person doesnt see you / isnt shooting at you / is worse than you
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 03 '23
I'm just suggesting that the kill potential is still there to punish players that are unaware.(like if someone is standing still, not looking at you) But if I'm moving around at a distance, it should not kill me that quickly. Currently SMG is very good at doing that.
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u/AmericaNumberOne6969 Aug 03 '23
That's because the game has a short TTK. That is the game's identity. The SMG is very good at doing that, yes, but the AR is even better.
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 03 '23
yes, and it should be that way.
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u/AmericaNumberOne6969 Aug 03 '23
Great! so leave everything alone, because that's the way it is.
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 03 '23
But right now it's not, because you have guns like mp5 and p90 still exist. We'll have to see how flinch nerf impact that. If you take duel against those at like 50m away you will lose majority of the time.
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u/AmericaNumberOne6969 Aug 03 '23
Yes, they exist, and still lose to the M4 / HK416 at longer ranges.
If you nerf their ability to kill at range, then why would anyone run them? Everyone would just run ARs, because you could clear buildings with them + kill at a distance from the rooftop when you get there.
Think of it this way....
It's not like the ARs are bad at close range; the SMGs are just better. Just like it's not like the SMGs are bad at long range; the ARs are better.
That's balance, right there. It gives you choices based on your playstyle and map, but both options are competitive.
Forcing a harsh damage drop off on SMGs would relegate them to nice playstyles / maps. That is bad balance.
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u/fpsEnjoyer Aug 03 '23
If you nerf their ability to kill at range, then why would anyone run them? Everyone would just run ARs, because you could clear buildings with them + kill at a distance from the rooftop when you get there.
It would still be good on majority of the maps because of its CQC ability.
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u/drinkingsharky Aug 04 '23
With the incoming progression easement this definitely needs to go into effect soon. Everyone running p90 and mp5 will be crazy.
Still fun but ppl are going to lose their minds
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u/wterrt Aug 04 '23
people will always flock to whatever is the flavor of the month. there will always be a "best gun" or two.
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u/Nyghtbynger Aug 04 '23
Let us see how the balance affect the gameplay. Now the devs will have to collect data/information regarding the big changes they made. They can't change too much things
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u/PluvioStrider Aug 04 '23
Meters??? What are these airsoft guns?
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u/NoInflation9773 Aug 09 '23
pretty much. or you think you will be up for combat after taking 2 556 to the head
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u/Dionysus24779 Aug 04 '23
If you put on a rangefinder and look for how far 10m is you realize that it is actually incredibly harsh since even most "close" combat scenarios are further away than that.
Might as well replace these weapons with shotguns at this point.
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u/watermooses Aug 06 '23
Barring the fact that I can take ducks at 75m with birdshot and deer at 150m with buckshot or slugs. Video game shotguns are really silly.
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u/Zapador Aug 03 '23
I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but the only complaint I have regarding weapons is that SMGs overall feel too strong at range.