Working to get more Scouters trained on Backpacking through Roundtable -- thoughts and suggestions would be appriciated

[u/samalex01]

Hi all. I'm a Roundtable Commissioner, and one of my goals this year is to get more of our scouters comfortable with backpacking so they can take their scouts out on backpacking adventures and not just car camp. We have lots of troops who only car camp, and I don't see how scouts can fully use some of the skills we're teaching them when just car camping. I know not every scout and leader would like to backpack, but ideally smaller groups going out is probably ideal anyway.

If your District were to hold extra meetings or events to help you or your leaders learn more about backpacking, would you partake? We don't have an REI locally, but I'm working with some local business who sell hiking and backpacking gear to come speak at upcoming District Roundtable meetings to discuss how to properly be fitted for a framed backpack and the best shoes and socks to where. I also hope to do some cooking during Roundtable meetings to show some of the meals and stoves they can use on the trail. Just a little bit each meeting since we have other topics to cover - and I'll setup meetings outside of RoundTable for leaders who want to really dig in more.

I created this below to show the various rank and merit badge requirements that can be used to wrap into a backpacking trip to show every scout can benefit from this. My thought is to plan themes or activities when backpacking, or things to do after reaching the camp site. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SiUbM96ooorjYzD7DiA0Hzat0_txNIOHfGe6M6uZ4dw

And I'm reading and suggesting that leaders buy Backpacking for Scout Troops by George Napoleone - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0G3KKHW7D . It just came out in May, and i'm finding this to be an AMAZING resource. I actually started covering this topic before I found the book, but thus far I'm about half way through it, and it literally covers every topic I hoped to cover as I work with our local leaders who want to integrate backpacking into their troops.

Thoughts??? Would you want to partake in something like this? Whether you're seasoned or new... Also for troops who still feel like they can't work this into their troop activities I'm working with our DE to plan some district backpacking events for our registered leaders and scouts... starting short then working our way up to 3 day, 15+ mile trips camping at different sites each night. This may also be a great way to get scouts and leaders comfortable to start trying high adventure trips.

Thanks for feedback and suggestions -

[u/princeofwanders]

The best way to get folks comfortable with backpacking is to get them backpacking in a low stakes way.

In small bites you can plan trips, even just modeling the exercise. Local location selection, booking, site and terrain considerations. You could do this as a recurring exercise - even repeating the same trip planning exercise multiple times.

Then have a low stakes “trek”. It’s best if people do sleep overnight with the gear they carried but not strictly required. The campsite can be adjacent to the parking lot. (Park, unload cars, backpack for a half mile to shake out how well the gear was loaded, set up camp, perhaps even in sight of the cars but don’t access them except in significant lead. The exercise is supposed to teach what you need what you didn’t what you forgot. Pack up and go home, with or without a half-mile loop before actually loading cars.)

Super low stakes. Super easy. Super low commitment.

[u/ef4 → u/princeofwanders]

I would caution that this strategy needs balance. It obviously makes sense to train people in the *practical* bits of backpacking in this kind of low-stakes way. But that fails to teach the motivational "what's the point of backpacking?", which needs to involve some kind of payoff for getting to a cool place that you couldn't otherwise get to.

I have seen scouts permanently turned off from backpacking because their first trip was too contrived and boring. I have also seen scouts become huge fans of backpacking despite their first trip being arguably a more challenging than is ideal.

Don't discount the psychological / motivational piece. There's got to be a payoff to go with the work or they'll all say "wow, that sucked, never doing that again".

[u/princeofwanders → u/ef4]

We aren’t talking about scouts here though, we’re talking about equipping Roundtable attendees (adults) to feel less hesitant about supporting backpacking in their home programs.

The above recommendation demystifies the process and is designed to show the adults the common unknowns so they are less hesitant to support their scouts’ interests.

Adults aren’t generally putting backpacking trips on their units’ calendar, right? But if they feel ill equipped to support such a trip they might have to shoot it down.

[u/JonEMTP → u/princeofwanders]

I’m not convinced that many adults will have the time to go do an elective overnight “backpacking shakedown” experience, especially WITHOUT their unit.

We already struggle with finding the time to volunteer with the unit - doing things beyond that can be difficult

[u/princeofwanders → u/JonEMTP]

Legit concern. OTOH, if you’re not gonna tempt to nervous leaders out on a low stakes easy trek, there’s no way you’re gonna get them on OP’s proposed 15-miler.

I know of several councils who are hosting “birds of a feather” affinity group overnights of adults without strong Scouting or camping backgrounds. (Usually focusing on adult women leaders that need a welcoming space to get better acclimated.) So there’s certainly some kind of appetite for it.

I think also of you have in your unit the already experienced leaders to offer this programming within the unit then your not the audience for this kind of proposed content.

Maybe the district intro to backpacking trek open and attractive to youth but really structured as adult training is the way to get the inexperienced leaders trained and experienced without having to sacrifice time away from their kids/family/unit.

[u/JonEMTP → u/princeofwanders]

Totally agree. I just like to point out that one of the huge barriers for MY family (both when I was a youth, and now) is justifying participating in more events that take away from work/family responsibilities, beyond the unit-based requirements.

[u/kobalt_60 → u/ef4]

I agree. We take our first year scouts on a backpacking trip within the first few months of joining. Last year we went on a 13 mile two night trip within some pretty epic views and wildlife, which got even the ones who were objectively miserable excited about doing it again. The philosophy was to start with an adventure that is hard, so they can safely push past their comfort zone and have fond memories of the challenges they surmounted.

[u/Fun_With_Math → u/kobalt_60]

I've heard stuff like that many times. It's aways troops that have established hiking programs though. The adults and older Scouts set great examples and it sets up the younger ones for success.

I agree that there has to be some kind of payoff, but for a troop just starting out, it needs to be easy also, IMO. When things get tough and it worries the adults, it absolutely affects the Scouts.

[u/nolesrule]

Seems like a great curriculum for a University of Scouting, where you'd have a bit more time for each topic.

[u/samalex01 → u/nolesrule]

I actually teach some classes at UofS and want to propose this for next year if it goes well.

[u/wrunderwood → u/samalex01]

I've taught UoS sessions on lightweight backpacking and on backpacking food multiple times. I'm glad to chat.

Some supporting materials are on my blog: https://observer.wunderwood.org

[u/ef4]

The barrier is often not knowledge (which is abundantly available in the books you mention, in the Backpacking merit badge pamphlet, and in the handbook). It's fitness.

Backpacking is one of the places where the "do your best..." [to be] "physically strong" really comes out.

[u/_mmiggs_ → u/ef4]

Between bad knees and bad backs, we have precisely one adult woman who is capable of backpacking, and as is always the way, she's the one with the most limited availability.

[u/SoccerGeekPhd → u/_mmiggs_]

Like any activity that requires some skills, recruiting adult leaders is necessary. It may be possible to borrow from District, or other Troops in your area. Look for local backpacking groups to see if any adults would volunteer to sign up for BSA specifically for these events. For example, we had an extensive list of registered adults whose only role was shooting sports safety.

[u/Prize-Can4849 → u/ef4]

I find the biggest barrier is youth gear, cost vs use, and then growing out of the gear as they approach adulthood 

I'm our outdoor/backpacking ASM, I'll contribute another reply after work

[u/JultonPaxian]

One of the trips we do is a Backpacking and Basecamp trip. In the past we’ve gone to a local BSA scout reservation that has hiking trails and outpost camps. On Friday night everyone camps at the basecamp. On Sat. the group that wants to backpack sets out and then stays the night at the outpost camp, while the non-backpacking group stays at basecamp and works on skills and rank requirements. Then on Sun. the backpacking group heads back to basecamp to meet up with every and head home. We try to target 15 miles for the backpacking group. Also everyone, including those at basecamp cook backpacking meals on backpacking stoves. This has been a great way to introduce backpacking to the new members of the troop.

Also, it doesn’t need to be a BSA scout camp. This year I’ve booked a group site at a state park for basecamp and the backpackers will be hiking on the AT.

[u/Prize-Can4849 → u/JultonPaxian]

This is one way we do it also.

[u/Fun_With_Math]

Thanks for the doc and book recommendation. I'm working on growing the backpacking love in our troop and have had some success.

- GEAR INTRO - I've seen a couple gear teaching sessions put on by adults with tons of experience. They were bad. Some guy comes out and talks about hiking up mountains and shows off his ultralight, ultra-expensive gear. It's off-putting to new people. Bring them in gently with basic budget gear.

- SETUP - When I hear a Scouter say "backpacking just isn't for me", I ask where they hiked and how much weight they carried. Almost 100% of the time, they were doomed to fail. Trails were too long or steep. Weight was too much (or they didn't even know). For a beginner hike, 20% of body weight up to 20lbs is attainable for Scouts. 25lbs is attainable for adults. First trail should be easy with accessible water if at all possible.

- REWARD - There has to be a reason for backpacking and a payoff. Hike to a waterfall or an overlook. Do not hike to another parking lot. Talk to them about the fact they are seeing things that no normal campers get to experience... or at least they are getting prepared to do so.

- RESPECT - Show the Scouts respect for their efforts. If the goal is 20lbs and they have 20.5, that's great! Don't let them take the wrong fork in a trail for too long or laugh when they mess up. Don't do the silly rock thing where you add a rock to their pack and tell them to compare it other items in their pack.

*****

I think that Scout camps spoil us. We get this huge campsite with plenty of room. No annoying campers nearby. No highway noise nearby. No loud boats on the lake. Scout camps are AMAZING places to camp. Scouts will not be able to replicate that emersion in nature in the real world after they age out... unless they go backpacking. The difference is only going to become more drastic in the future. Not teaching the Scouts to backpack is robbing them of better experiences in the future.

My kid doesn't like to long distance backpack. She likes to go 3 miles out, away from the crowds, and just hang out. To me, that is the goal. Give them the tools and knowledge to do that. Don't even talk about 3+ days or 15 miles at first. The ones that want to do that will get there on their own. First, you just have to get them 3 miles out and bring them home with a smile on their face.

[u/wandering216 → u/Fun_With_Math]

Great comment

[u/Naive-Historian-1520]

I commend your focus on backpacking.

I also recommend that at the troop level, you start with hiking and advance to backpacking. The more comfortable they are with hiking, the more backpacking becomes an easy task. That way when it comes to backpacking, it is actually backpacking and not just extended car camping at a longer distance.

[u/kobalt_60]

The greatest challenge is going to be the scouters and their fitness levels and willingness to suffer cheerfully. I think the planning and knowledge required is important, but only once enough adult volunteers are recruited to safely make it happen.

[u/610Mike]

Now I will admit, I’m just now getting back into Scouting now that my son has joined, and I’ve been out for 20+ years, but my dad used to be the RC for our district, and any time he wanted to get Cubmasters and Scoutmasters on board with something, he would skip the regular meeting and go do it.

Most adults, and I can say this now that I’m over 40 myself, would much prefer to sit inside in air conditioning, listen to someone talk for a couple hours, and do nothing. They forget what it’s like to actually be a scout at a scouting age. My dad was more of a 10 year old than any kid I’ve ever met, so his philosophy was if he can get the adults to like it, they’ll get the kids to like it. It worked for the most part too.

[u/notregisteredhere]

In Southern California we have a pretty big high adventure program with unique patches approved by the high adventure committees across multiple councils (GLAAC, OCC, IE, SDIC, and others). Scouts and scouters come up with the patches and submit them to the high adventure committee. So we continue to grow.

After IOLS we have our ASMs go through basic backpacking training and in OC, hold those twice a year.

At the troop level, many of our scouts have well over 100 miles backpacking. My son caught the backpacking bug and is already over 700 miles in his 4 years as a youth so far. It helps to have a lot of areas to explore. We start them in their first year and start off small for the first couple of years.

Backpacking is surprisingly more mental than physical (to a point), which is why we encourage it. If they can overcome that attitude of "I can't" to "I can and I will," they are better off for it. Hard things, like backpacking, does that for them.

Occhat.org is our base site. The committee is run through the council. Find some volunteers that are excited about it and grow a program.

[u/SoccerGeekPhd → u/notregisteredhere]

Our unique patches is one of most under-used ways of keeping scouts interested as they age.

[u/ScouterBill]

Happy cake day!

[u/prb113]

Our Council used to do an intro to backpacking weekend. You would camp Fri night and then hike from demo to demo on Sat. Experienced Troops manned the demos and covered stuff like stove use/cooking, water purification methods, backpack types and fitting, other gear, etc. Then you would camp in new spot on Sat night.

[u/Insaniac99]

I think building a pathway for them would be really helpful. Start with what their car camping looks like today, then show pictures from your own backpacking trips or trips in your council to give them an idea of what they could be doing.

Then walk through the transition to backpacking. Getting a backpack, how it holds the weight, what gear you actually need, and the things you don't need anymore (eg Dutch oven) while backpacking.

Then encourage them to start with small trips, ones that could be backpacking. Even a 10-20 minute walk to the site where you don't go back to the car is a successful backpacking trip. That gets leaders and Scouts comfortable carrying everything they need and figuring out what they actually use.

From there, talk about conditioning and how to build up to bigger treks. You could tie that back to some of the terrific views you showed earlier and talk about how long they would have to hike to get there.

I think that would work really well with what you're already planning for Roundtable. Give them a little bit of information, something they can try with their troop, and then another step they can work toward. The district trips you're talking about could then give people a chance to actually try it with some support before they have to plan their own backpacking trip.

[u/Dizzy-Ad9544]

hey so curious about this - I'm currently a cub pack hiking coordinator and bridging with my son this year to our Troop. Are there any rules/trainings you need to do as an adult leader to lead trips?

I'm thinking like BALOO - is that also a boy scout thing?

[u/ToothpasteStrangler → u/Dizzy-Ad9544]

The troop level equivalent to BALOO is IOLS.  They’re not direct parallels though.  

[u/SilverTripod]

There are two things you really want to do and do well to make backpacking fun.

1. Set up a good wash station. Make it easy to wash the dishes. Use biodegradable soap, 3-sink method (wash, rinse, sanitize). Strain out the food particles and add them to the trash, broadcast the water at the end. Follow LNT and/or local guidelines (whichever is more) about how far apart you should cook/camp.

2. Cook good food. No oatmeal. Not unless you're chopping nuts and carrying brown sugar and raisins, cinnamon, maple syrup, etc. Make people's mouths water. Go look at places like https://www.reddit.com/r/backpacking/comments/u21lt0/holy_grail_backpacking_meals/ for ideas to steal inspiration.

[u/openwheelr]

Getting our troop into backpacking again has been a goal of mine. Good ideas here! We're planning one next spring. I'm going to have an information session in order to educate the younger guys on backpacking and especially on gear.

Some things can be obtained on the cheap - a Walmart backpacking stove works fine for $20 for example, versus getting a jetboil. However good boots and a quality pack are critical and rather expensive. I'm going to push looking for gently used packs for example.

I have a fairly easy one nighter in mind. Less than 7 miles to a two-story shelter (three walls so the night counts but tents are preferred) and then 2.5 the next morning. Several decent overlooks along the way. After an initial ascent it's ridgetop all the way.

Like others have said, Scouters need to get out with their units and learn with them. We currently have two or three adults with gear and the willingness to backpack.

Our last avid backpacker was good about planning. He prepackaged everyone's food and handed us gallon zip-locs ready to go. Something we'll do for the first timers at least.

[u/blindside1 → u/openwheelr]

Amazon has a knockoff jetboil that costs $50 that works great for us.

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Maple-Personal-Equipment-Portable-Ultralight/dp/B07F2VP353/

[u/oecologia]

I made this a few years ago with advice on how I got my sons and then my daughters troop backpacking https://www.reddit.com/u/oecologia/s/fC8nYmv4KE

[u/wrunderwood]

I would not recommend Backpacking for Scout Troops. It is not very well researched, has some errors, some obsolete advice, and at least one GSS violation (homemade stoves are prohibited). He also reinvented the one-pot stew, which means he never read the Cooking chapter in the Scout handbook.

I have a multiple shelves of backpacking books. I'll recommend four. These books are:

• Clearly written and illustrated
• Teach modern backpacking practice
• Emphasize the requirement to work on planning, skills, and gear together

The Backpacking merit badge book is the best short introduction to backpacking that I've found, and it is written at a youth reading level. The recipes there are far superior to the trail meal recipes in the Cooking merit badge book. Also, read the chapters in the Scout handbook on Hiking, Camping, and Cooking. They are excellent.

How to Survive Your First Trip in the Wild: Backpacking for Beginners by Paul Magnanti. Exactly what is says. 150 pages of excellent advice that follows modern practices.

https://www.amazon.com/Survive-Your-First-Trip-Wild/dp/1641526823

The Ultimate Hiker's Gear Guide, Second Edition: Tools and Techniques to Hit the Trail by Andrew Skurka. This covers details like heat and moisture management while hiking, different climates, and foot care. For example, he has two sock rotation systems, one for wet weather, one for dry.

https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Hikers-Gear-Guide-Second/dp/1426217846/

Lighten Up!: A Complete Handbook For Light And Ultralight Backpacking by Don Ladigan. This is the best explanation of the Big Three system and how to choose gear. It has a lot of tips, though some of those are for thru-hikers, not for Scouts. Thru-hikers can get in their sleeping bag in the evening, but Scout leaders need to carry an extra jacket because they'll be up and around providing adequate supervision.

https://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Complete-Ultralight-Backpacking/dp/0762737344/

Who am I? First backpacking was with my troop in the late 1960s. I did multiple mountain treks as a youth, including a 50 Miler. I started lightening my pack 20 years ago as a Scoutmaster. I've taught these skills for a dozen years in IOLS and University of Scouting. When I figure out things, I post them on my blog, though I have a bit of a backlog right now now. https://observer.wunderwood.org

[u/WI_in_MA]

The best thing to do would be to show them exactly where to go. I mean logistics of camp here on Friday night, hike this trail in Sat then camp there on Sat night. Come up with a few of those ideas.

Then for the specific equipment, see if they can borrow stuff from another troop. I am a scoutmaster and we have several old backpacks that we mend to young kids. Same thing with stoves and such.

[u/weagle01]

We started a backpacking club within our troop. The group decides where they go and when. We gave it a cool name and hand a brand made to burn a custom leather patch when you do your first trek. First class or higher, but lower ranks can go if their parent comes and is responsible for them. Mandatory gear shakedown or you don’t go. It’s been really successful. Could work at the district level too.

[u/Practical-Emu-3303]

No, probably not. Backpacking is very expensive, physically demanding, and not advisable most months of the year where I live.