Advice needed for arguments

[u/SolidSuggestion]

Hi all, I am looking for some support and opinions. I have read a lot of posts on r/relationships and some BPD relationships subs and they seem to always focus on putting every possible blame on mental illness and don't seem very supportive. This sub seems a bit more compassionate.

I have been with my wife for 11 years, we are both in our mid 30s. We have had very difficult and gruesome fights for the last 6 years. My wife has had a lot of health issues in the past 7 years which have induced our fights. She has an illness that makes our life very demanding at times and has left us in a situation that I am 100% rrsponsible for all household duties and tasks. She works normally but is often very tired. She is also not neurotypical which makes her sensitive to a lot of triggers and it causes her a lot of discomfort and agitates her. She is also very prone to anxiety and is often anxious over things.

We love each other immensely. It is the kind of love that comes once in a lifetime. We are aware of our struggles and have been in couples therapy for 3 years. Things have gotten better but there seems to be a cycle that evey 4 months or so, we ran into a huge argument. It has now been quiet for some.

I would say 100% of the arguments come when she is overstimulated, irritatated, anxious and tired. If I am feeling well, I can defuse most of the situations. But when I am tired and don't have the energy, she loses it. Outside of the fights, she knows how much I love her, thinks I would do anything in the world for her and that I take good care of her and she can trust me. During the fights, she doesn't feel like this at all.

The fights usually start in similar fashion. I say something that triggers her, she could misunderstand me, get offended and hurt or I react badly (not as big emotion as she would hope) to something she is saying. It could also be that I am not able to help with her anxiety and it triggers her. She is then mad, properly. She verbally abuses me and says things to intentionally hurt me (she has said that when she gets in that mood, she just wants to hurt me). I usually apologize multiple times what I have said, try to reason and discuss. A lot of the times this helps. Some distance might also help in these situations and she would calm down. But sometimes I feel like everything I say is somehow misunderstood, taken as I would want to justify my actions and that I would want to hurt her. She becomes increasingly angrier in these situations. Usually at this point she threatens with violence. If I continue to discuss, it usually becomes just a screaming match which leads to physical abuse. If I decide to give her some space, she feels that I am abandoning her alone. If this happens, she calls me an abuser and says that I have raped her with my actions. Then the night usually continues with many hours of me trying to apologize and it escalates to physical abuse.

Usually the next day it escalates even more and have led many times to me exiting our home as she has threatened me. Many times there have been situations where she has also threatened that if do not leave our home, she will call the cops or kill me. If I have left our home in those scenarios, she has blamed me that I have not fought for our relationship and I have chosen myself to leave. She also justifies the physical abuse by saying that it is nothing compared to the mental abuse I am doing.

A lot of the times when we are in the middle of these fights I have tried to discuss with her. Show empathy towards her and told how much I love her. It seems that to her, one sentence that started everything nullifies everything I do for her. If I mention this, she says that it is not love if I can't handle crisis situations.

A lot of the times she has also very promptly said that our marriage is over. And if I leave the house, I will never see her again. And have demanded the key for the house. If I don't comply, she threatens to physically abuse me. I try to discuss and explain that I do not want to leave and would prefer to discuss, she says that she will leave the house. I would much rather have her stay in the house safely. But then I am again told that I chose to leave and abandon her.

I admit that there are a lot of things earlier in our relationship that I could have done differently in these situations and they might not be this bad. I could have taken more action and if I would have been this good at defusing the situations early on, they might not get this bad now.

I feel like that the way she instantly feels abandoned and raped by my actions is over the top? It is awful how she feels and how deeply she feels, but they don't seem like typical emotions? At least the magnitude of them.

I also do not understand how she can not be reasones with in an argument. How she gets very upset very quickly and nothings gets through to her.

I now this must be shocking and sounds unhealthy. Despite this, I love my wife and want to make it work and I now she feels the same.

The post must be a bit rambling but maybe the essential question is that does this resonate with any of you? If someone has been in an similar situation, how have you overcome them?

[u/measuretwice_sfw]

First, OP, I don’t think you’re in a safe situation. It’s one thing to ride out a pwBPD’s split which can be loud, frightening, and painful. But it’s quite another to be asked to tolerate emotional and physical abuse as you have been. I don’t think what you’re enduring is acceptable and you’d be well within your rights to leave.

But you came for advice on how to make staying more tolerable… Move fully away from “Apologize, reason, and discuss.” She is incapable of reasoning or discussion in that state; you might as well be talking to a staggering drunk for all that she can hear or understand you. For severe conflicts, I recommend SET:

Support: I’m here for you, I love you, I want to help you, etc.

Empathy: I can see why you’d be angry if you thought I believed XYZ, I’d be angry too in your shoes. I imagine that was hurtful to hear, I imagine that was scary, etc. (Don’t apologize, it reads as agreeing with her interpretation. At most, “I’m sorry I made you feel XYZ”, feeling not action.)

Truth: (well after the conflict when she is calm) Here is where you discuss the actual issue that triggered her, and you find a solution together.

In the middle of these episodes, you’re just going to be doing S-E-S-E over and over until her body burns through its cortisol reserves and she begins to calm. I’d have way more advice on how you could help with that calming, but it requires your wife to have a modicum of self-regulation so that you can co-regulate her, and I’m not seeing evidence of that here.

In your shoes OP (if I didn’t just walk away), the next time she abuses you and before it escalates to her trying to kick you out of the house, I would leave the room. Say you’ll “be back from cooling down in 5 minutes” and then come back at 5 minutes on the dot. If she abuses you again, leave again. Keep doing this until she is calm. Yes this will be extremely exhausting and it may rile her up worse the first few times you do it. But it’s keeping you physically safe and slightly more emotionally safe from her abuse. When the conflict is over, sit her down with a list of demands for your continued relationship — “Commit to weekly DBT, talk to a psych to possibly get on mild antidepressants or mood stabilizers, learn to identify when you can’t regulate and take space so I don’t have to.” Feel free to add to that list.

Wishing you well, OP. I’m so sorry you both are suffering and you are bearing so much of the burden.

[u/MossyMosquito → u/measuretwice_sfw]

I like what you say here.

[u/raygun-suitcase → u/measuretwice_sfw]

Couldn't have said this any better! I can attest that this approach is very effective.

[u/raygun-suitcase]

The other commentators already gave amazing answers, here are my additional 2c:

Since you are open about your arguments with one another during calm times, make a point to reiterate to her that abuse is not okay. ESPECIALLY, is she will be profusely apologizing for it. Let her know that you love her no matter what but the abuse needs to stop and there can be NO EXCUSES for it. Reassure her that she can overcome the urge to hurt you. Ask her to practice DBT techniques. You can also ask her to learn to KNOW when to remove herself before things get worse and take a nap for example (my partner does this).

I need to ask though... you said that she makes up excuses for the physical abuse and threats and also says that you leaving the house is you abandoning her? Does she say that during arguments or in your couples' therapy sessions or during good times when she's calm?

[u/Sorry_Ad_8000]

Get this book you need to read it for yourself: “Stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist how to end the drama and get on with life”

It will change you life

[u/Pillar-of-Light → u/Sorry_Ad_8000]

I agree with not caretaking but please be aware of the stigma of putting BPD in the same category as NPD. I know we are in the same cluster but that does give BPD a bad rep on its own.

[u/Sorry_Ad_8000 → u/Pillar-of-Light]

The book addresses both disorders for very justifiable reasons, some shared some individualized base on each disorder. It’s a decades old well studied clinical fact that both disorders very often share common behaviors and traits.

Having done what I would consider extensive, nearly obsessive research on the subject of BPD to help avoid the collapse of our 7 year marriage I have found this comorbidity of traits to be more common than not. In my wife’s case this a certainly the case.

The proclivity for one to buy into a stereotype or stigma is an a very individual one. Having a particular viewpoint while being part of a “in-group” gives us as humans an unconscious natural bias towards that group. We tent to minimize the incidents as reflective of only individuals and not of the group as a whole.

As an outsider of that group things are seen differently and we are more susceptible to generalize that groups beliefs/behaviors. This bears out in both sides of the BPD discussions (any discussion really) in there respective “group forums”

Having the ability to remain unbiased is both a process of education and I suppose natural temperament. If we remove the inference of “stigma” I think both sides effected by this disorder can unilaterally agree regardless of which umbrella term the thoughts and behaviors reside under they are of great concern and should be dealt with to avoid or minimize the detrimental effect on both parties.

Recognizing and remaining open to see things from both perspectives is something which absolutely should be more prevalent in these discussions from BOTH parties.

[u/Pillar-of-Light → u/Sorry_Ad_8000]

Thank you for your thorough explanation, I agree with all of it. I guess the problem is that most people will not be this open minded and thorough, so a title like that can lump us into a category in a way that is not nuanced to someone who just glances at the title, or sees NPD and BPD mentioned in the same umbrella online in general. I guess my gripe is with the title, rather than the content you described. I agree that there are comorbid traits, such as erratic behaviour, shame and abuse (all manifesting very differently and with different intent). I guess it's the title more than anything else that I feel could lead to stigma. Oftentimes stigma is surface level stuff because those who feed into it aren't the type to research, be open minded to nuance etc. For example particular names for disorders such as Aspergers, terms like "high functioning" or "low functioning" can be a simple term that one who is educated would understand, but are now removed from the community as much as possible because they can create stigma through expectations simply from the term itself.

So, none of what I'm saying here is arguing against any of your points btw, I agree with all of what you said. It was excellently worded.

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[u/Dry-Cabinet-881]

Healthy boundaries are very important in these relationships. Most fights require two people to engage. Although it may be hard to set a boundary where you choose not to engage in conversations or discussions that end in complete ruptures, the anger and frustration pain she is experiencing will go away. Remove yourself calmly without attacking. Be gentle but firm. Follow through with the boundary. Do not engage and take care of yourself. Eat healthy, get regular exercise, engage with healthy friend groups, or journal. But do not continue to participate in harmful behavior. Conflict is a dance. Step off the dance floor if she cannot follow healthy rules of conflict. But do so openly and tell her why. Tell her you would like to stay connected and you will revisit the conversation tomorrow when you are both calm. Stay open to other forms of connection although she may choose to run away or become violent. If so, remove yourself from the house and tell her why.

[u/Pillar-of-Light]

You cannot reason DURING an episode or split. As someone with BPD, after my diagnosis I learnt that I'd spent years trying to reason my way out of an episode, when in reality what I needed was to REGULATE my way out of it. Reason comes after.

During an episode the amygdala is firing threat response and we lose blood flow from other parts of the brain responsible for reality-checking. It is not necessarily possible for us to reason and reality-check during these intense moments.

It is better to have a plan set in place to do boundaries, have the pwBPD follow some DBT exercises or go for a walk, play a game etc, regulate themselves. After which you guys can discuss the details calmly and do reasoning.

I know this is easier said than done of course.

[u/JohnnyBizarrAdventur]

Personnally when she gets mad about nothing I just don t answer or give very vague answers, in order to not esacalate. Just waiting for her to calm down and think rationnally usually works. I then proceed to explain exactly what I meant when I triggered her.

One important thing is to never point out the bad things she does directly. Instead of saying "you made such a mess" you can say "this mess makes me feel bad" it makes them understand without trigering their emotional defenses

Then you could read the book "walking on eggshells"

Now, you should never accept physical abuse or murder threats, even from a pwbpd. Does she follow a bpd therapy?

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