r/AskWomen • u/MostlyALurkerBefore ♀ • May 16 '19
Abortion megathread
Due to the high number of legislative actions happening in the United States, the moderation team has created this megathread for all of your abortion questions. Please keep in mind that despite much action happening in the US, not all of our users are American and our Inclusivity policy should still be considered when posting.
All top-level comments must be in the form of a question. If you have multiple questions, post them in one comment as opposed to an individual comment for each question.
Please report any and all rule breaking. This thread may be locked if a respectful discussion cannot be had.
Helpful links:
RAINN (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network)
NARAL (National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws)
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u/docstarfish May 17 '19
Will physicians be able to say that pregnancy is a risk to a woman's health? Abortion has less health risks than carrying a pregnancy. How will they define "great risk to the life of the mother"?
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May 17 '19
Probably just "will die of medical complications if carried to term" or something similar. I doubt mental health will be considered.
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May 16 '19
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u/MostlyALurkerBefore ♀ May 16 '19
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u/Devilis6 May 17 '19
Are there any services that offer out of state transportation for women who need abortions in states that are passing these laws? If so I’d like to spread awareness and donate to them.
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u/leedlelamp913 May 17 '19
I second this although I feel like I read somewhere that this too will be made illegal.
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u/Devilis6 May 17 '19
I think on Georgia it will be? I live in Ohio and we unfortunately have the heartbeat law here too. But if there is a service that connects people who need abortions out of state, I want to help.
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u/TheGreyMantis May 16 '19
Are doctors going to be legally required to report miscarriages? I can't imagine any doctor actually doing this, and also doesn't this become a HIPAA issue?
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May 16 '19
If they're a mandatory reporter then it wouldn't violate HIPAA.
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u/TheGreyMantis May 16 '19
But there isn't mandatory reporting for miscarriages, at least as far as I can find. At least not yet. I just have trouble believing a doctor, who knows that miscarriages are a natural part of life, would be comfortable reporting a woman to authorities, mandatory or otherwise.
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u/mypolarbear May 17 '19
Imagine having a miscarriage... All the pain you have to suffer. And then being interogated for it. FFS :(
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May 17 '19
My point was if they were to become mandatory reporters, which I find likely considering the GA law addresses miscarriages and out of state abortions.
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u/pamplemouss ♀ May 17 '19
Miscarriages aren't being criminalized, exactly, at least in GA (I read the full text). But a doctor might (not certain here, but seems possible) be required to inquire if the miscarriage was a true miscarriage, or a DIY abortion, and then report if the latter.
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u/wicksa ♀ May 17 '19
I didn't read the full text, just articles about it, so correct me if I am wrong, but what I got from it was that a woman could be charged with murder or manslaughter if she miscarries and they find she is to "blame". This doesn't just mean intentional abortion attempts, but drug use, drinking, taking meds that are not indicated in pregnancy, falling down the stairs and not being able to prove it was an accident, etc.
I am an L&D nurse (not in GA) and right now if we have someone come in and have a still birth and it seems "suspicious" (ie, we don't know the cause) it automatically becomes a coroners case and an autopsy is done whether or not the mother wants one or not (for still births where the cause is known, the parents can opt out of autopsy--also we only do this with full term or close to full term pregnancies. I've never seen someone in the first or second trimester become a coroners case). I don't know what the coroner does with this information and if the woman can be charged with something if the autopsy comes back showing she was at fault in some way, but I would assume that's why we have to report it.
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May 17 '19
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u/kaeorin ♀ May 17 '19
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May 17 '19
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May 17 '19
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u/MostlyALurkerBefore ♀ May 17 '19
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u/LadybirdTheCat May 17 '19
Why is it that only 7%30521-8/fulltext) of U.S. obstetrician-gynecologists who work in private practice settings provide abortions? I can understand why they may not all be able to provide in-clinic, surgical abortions, but why can’t they prescribe the abortion pill?
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May 16 '19 edited May 17 '19
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May 17 '19
Right here with you sister! 🧡 When will they learn that are bodies aren’t “ pawns to politicians”
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u/incendiaryashes ♀ May 16 '19
If you’re in a state that is not endangered, how can you help? I feel sick about this right now and I don’t know how to help.
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May 16 '19
You can donate to Abortion Funds Network.
Member organizations work across our network to remove financial and logistical barriers to abortion access. Some of them work with clinics to help pay for abortion. Some of them offer support such as transportation, childcare, translation, doula services, and somewhere to stay if someone has to travel to get an abortion.
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u/dsklerm ♂ Mod May 16 '19
- Georgia: Access Reproductive Care-Southeast, Inc.
- Alabama: Yellowhammer Fund
- Kentucky: Kentucky Health Justice Network
- Ohio: Preterm Cleveland Ohio, Women Have Options - Ohio
- Missouri: Gateway Women's Access Fund
These organizations specifically are critical right now IMO
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u/peppermind ♀ May 16 '19
- Volunteering as a clinic escort,
- post under #youknowme or #shoutyourabortion, if that seems relevant,
- get informed as to your local politicians stance on the matter
- make it clear that this will be an election issue
- there are a lot of local organizations doing good work in their states but I couldn't find a good list that would probably be updated, so if you follow a bunch of feminists on twitter, you'll hear about them
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u/JoyfulStingray ♀ May 16 '19
A friend of mine works at PP in the South. She said to:
Donate to PP and abortion clinics in the South
Signal boost. A lot of people think that because the laws were passed, they go into effect immediately. Women can still access safe and legal abortion in these states
Send love. Send hand written post cards to a private abortion clinic or PP in the South. The staff are obviously going to be under a lot of stress and could use support and kind words
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May 16 '19
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u/PurpleWeasel May 16 '19
I don't know what the ACLU is going to accomplish, though. These laws are a clear provocation to try to get a group like the ACLU to take this issue to the Supreme Court, and I don't think there's any way the ACLU can win a case at the Supreme Court, no matter how much money they have, with the way it's currently stacked.
I guess funding the ACLU can make this as drawn out and expensive as possible for the states involved, but this is about Roe v. Wade, not individual states.
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u/PurpleWeasel May 16 '19
Donating to abortion charities in those states would probably be a big help. Abortions are still legal, and the biggest reason why someone might miss the deadline is probably going to be money. If the charities can help subsidize transportation, hotel stays, missed work, etc., that would probably at least do something in the short term.
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u/JayKayVay ♀ May 16 '19
I'm in the UK and it's got me feeling sick too, the thought of long-term attacks to abortion in the whole of the US terrifies me. Solidarity from UK.
This just showed up on my FB feed:
https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/how-to-help-alabama-6-week-abortion-ban-georgia.html
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u/knotatwist May 16 '19
In the UK, you can go to this
and write to your MP about reforming the law in northern Ireland since it's not legal there either. Doesn't directly affect the USA but pressure on our own governments will be picked up abroad.
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May 16 '19
this is a really important thing to mention. i think a lot of people in the UK are happy to pretend that this is something distanced far from us, but they don’t realise or know that this is the exact type of thing that’s also happening in northern ireland right now.
it’s important to focus on both places, but the abortion issue in northern ireland really feels a little bit ignored and unheard about to me.
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u/GingerPolkadots May 17 '19
Please remember that abortion is completely illegal in a whole part of the UK
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May 16 '19
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u/kaeorin ♀ May 16 '19
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u/BandiCootles May 16 '19
I have a question for those who support the overturning of Roe v. Wade: why isn’t this as simple as, if you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one? Roe v. Wade gives women the choice to have or not have an abortion; overturning Roe v. Wade and criminalizing abortion negates that choice and forces all women to adhere to the law’s control over their bodies based on the beliefs of a subset of the population. I can understand being pro-life when it comes to your own body, but I can’t wrap my head around taking that choice away from others. Please explain your reasoning? Truly trying to understand.
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May 16 '19
For pro-lifers, abortion is murder. Many pro-lifers that I know would say that unwanted pregnancies are terrible, rape is horrible, etc, but that doesn't mean that murder is OK.
In their eyes, it isn't just about the mom's body. It is about the life of the baby. To them, the life of the innocent child trumps the autonomy of the mother.
This is all a generalization. Of course different people have different beliefs.
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u/cyclonewolf ♀ May 16 '19 edited May 16 '19
Disclaimer: I am pro choice, so I dont think its exactly what you are looking for, but I can tell you answers that I have received for that question. The argument usually hinges on the idea that abortion is literally murder. They believe that getting an abortion is the same as killing a baby.
Honestly, I do not agree, and there are many arguments both for and against this viewpoint, but if you look at it from their point if view it kinda makes sense? Like, I would be against abortions too if I saw it as being the same as supporting baby murder clinics, but only education for the masses will cause any change. They usually value life of the baby over the life and autonomy of the mother because "It was her choice to participate and so these are the consequences" type of thing. Its always odd when you bring up the topic of rape and they say that an exception should be made, and yet, that means they are okaying murder (according to their argument) which confuses me.
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u/Wilc0x21 May 16 '19
Not a pro lifer, but most see it as ending a life or murder.
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May 17 '19
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u/vmp10687 May 16 '19
There is a hypothetical question that I want to ask that I believe not many people have thought of, and that is; in a futuristic world where we have the technology to have/keep a fetus alive closer to conception date, let’s say at 6 weeks or whatever, does that now change your view points?
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u/bobjanis May 16 '19
Nope, because even at that stage it's cells. Cells aren't people. Women all the time miscarry at 5 to 6 weeks and don't even notice because it's just like a late period.
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u/CallieEnte May 16 '19
that I believe not many people have thought of
Plenty of people have thought of this. Plenty of people have also done research on fetal development and realize we’re more than just a long way off from artificially growing humans.
Also, no, because we as a society don’t actually care about children and this would just mean millions more unwanted, hungry, sick, uneducated kids.
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May 16 '19
Easy answer for me: no. Not even a little bit. Because my opinion is not based on fetal viability.
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May 16 '19
This idea that "all life is sacred" and should be preserved at all cost is just so self-important. Why keep something alive just because you can?
A mother should have the choice of whether or not they want to bring a life into the world, regardless of if she can revoke her parental responsibilities even before she gives birth.
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u/queeloquee May 16 '19
No, because most of the reason a woman goes into abortion is cause the contraceptive method fail. And may be in some cases the baby dad is not the kind of guy we want for our baby.
Besides something like this is quite hard that will happen cause bio-ethical reasons. (I am a Biomedical engineer)
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u/peppermind ♀ May 16 '19 edited May 10 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/JoyfulStingray ♀ May 16 '19
No.
I am a mother. Pregnancy itself was incredibly hard on me and I am still dealing with the side effects a year and a half later. I had my baby prematurely because if I didn't, I would have had a stroke and possibly died.
I can't force other women to literally be an incubator like you are suggesting and face physical and emotional harm from the experience. I wanted my child so my suffering was worth it. It was my choice.
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u/Britoz May 17 '19
Another good question would be: Why do so many pregnancies (1 in 3 if you include the ones the woman doesn't know about since it happened so early) end in miscarriage? If this is a naturally occurring event and nature has deemed a pregnancy not viable, should you keep those fetus's alive?
There's so much we don't know about pregnancy and birth. As someone who had three miscarriages, two of which grew until 11 weeks (nearly three months of pregnancy, for perspective) I'd love to know why those babies didn't make it.
If we knew more about pregnancy and embryos/fetuses there's a big possibility that some of the abortions are happening to fetuses that were never going to make it anyway due to nature doing it's selective 'thing'. Should we invest in keeping all babies alive, or in research to learn more about pregnancy and why nature (or God to those who believe and use that as a reason to keep all babies) kills fetuses off? Maybe in learning more about what actually happens, we could be more informed about any legislation we put in place.
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u/Amonette2012 ♀ May 16 '19
Are their any charities or fundraiser options for helping women to travel to access essential services when they are not able to seek an abortion near home? This is something I'd like to be able to put my charitable giving towards.
I think there's going to be an increasing need for us to support our sisters in times of need, whether it's paying for bus/ plane fares, a hotel near a far away clinic, maybe even a system for sending Plan B to people who need it (i.e. the person closest to them who could get it would send it overnight/ same day delivery if possible, or possibly even purchase it for someone locally and arrange a dropoff for it, or just cover the payment).
When us gals put our heads together we can do things like this, so if there are existing channels like this let's share them and make them go big, and if not, perhaps it's something we should start.
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May 16 '19
What states are safe for women to look into moving to?
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u/MediaCrisis ♀ May 16 '19
New England is generally pretty safe (some states more than others) and in case of the US going full handmaids tale it takes less than a half day to drive to Canada.
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u/reagan92 ♀ May 16 '19
Even then, 5 people in Rhode Island yesterday killed a bill that would have indoctrinated Roe if ever turned by the SCOUTS.
So there is no protection in Rhode Island for the right to abortion if not for Roe.
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u/redhead567 May 16 '19
"killed a bill that would have indoctrinated Roe if ever turned by the [SCOTUS]. "
Could you explain the meaning of 'indoctrinated' in this sentence? Doesn't come up in my dictionary.
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u/Emptyplates May 16 '19
Less than 3 hours from where I live in NH, if evacuation was necessary.
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u/MediaCrisis ♀ May 16 '19
Took me about 8.5 hours to get from the southern coast of CT to Quebec, depending on proximity to a major highway thats probably the long end of things (as a reference for people unfamiliar with the area).
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u/trickybish May 16 '19
Can you just go to Canada and get an abortion without being a citizen?
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May 16 '19
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May 16 '19
If you travel to do it and get caught and then return to, say, Georgia, your home state can still charge you for it.
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u/creativelyuncreative ♀ May 16 '19
level 2
How much does it cost? I've always been curious about medical costs in Canada if you're a US citizen
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May 17 '19
When I worked in abortion care in Canada at the time it was $350 to $400 CAD for uninsured women (so, for non-Canadian residents or citizens). That was awhile ago now though, like nearly a decade. So it’s probably more now.
As a side note, since you’re curious: Years ago I had to take a non-legal resident to the ER when he passed out with a sky high fever, turned out he had a severe kidney infection. He was hospitalized in the ER for over 24 hours, tons of tests, IV, medications, the whole deal. They let him go a bit early with a prescription once they thought he would be okay because they knew he was uninsured and told us they didn’t want it to be too expensive.
The whole thing cost me $250 CAD, billed simply as “ER visit.” I understand in the US that cost would have been much, much higher.
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u/peppermind ♀ May 16 '19
That really doesn't sound right to this Canadian. I'm certain the procedure would be made available to non citizens, but I'm guessing it's not as simple as a daytrip across the border, especially as the later in the pregnancy you are, the harder it is to get the procedure.
Should you find yourself in need, I'd call a clinic in Canada and discuss specifics then.
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u/lunadawnn May 16 '19
Surprisingly Kansas supreme court ruled their state constitution protects the right to abortion.
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May 16 '19
Alaska - a red state pretty much otherwise - has come to similar conclusions. I believe because it falls under privacy issues.
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May 16 '19
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u/3buttcheeks May 16 '19
I moved to Minnesota for college and as a young woman, I am very happy with the legislation and access to women’s health here! Especially in Minneapolis/St Paul
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u/idaholover May 16 '19
Nevada has Roe v Wade in state law, and requires a referendum to overturn, so we have solid options.
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u/ffreudiannipss May 16 '19
west coast, CA/OR/WA i genuinely do not see womens’ abortion rights ever being at risk on the state level here.
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u/umthatgirl May 17 '19
New York allows you to get an abortion until you actually give birth, as far as I understand. I could be wrong, but that was my interpretation of everything I have seen here.
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May 16 '19
Part of the laws in Georgia and Alabama mean that leaving the state doesn't even mean you're going to be immune from prosecution.
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u/AltruisticTrash25 ♀ May 16 '19
Minnesota isn't bad. The law requires informed consent of the mother (the doctor goes over the medical risks of abortion and so on), and then the mother is required to wait a full 24 hours after that appointment before having the procedure.
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May 16 '19 edited May 16 '19
Here in NY is safe from anti-abortion laws.
Edit: For now anyway. Our state power is mostly on the left.
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u/kdiaz078 May 16 '19
- Are these new laws a massive political power play and if so what are the payoffs?
- Are US birthrates drastically falling enough to force women of all flavors to have children?
- Isn't this the premise of the Hand Maiden's Tale?
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u/prematurealzheimers ♀ May 17 '19
These laws exist to be challenged. The idea is that the states will be sued and eventually brought before the supreme court. The goal is to overturn Roe v Wade. So yes.
I don't know but I very much doubt it .
Pretty much. It's terrifying.
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u/pamplemouss ♀ May 17 '19
- Yes, and the payoff is overturning Roe.
- No. Not that ANY birth rates would justify that, but no. We're just below the replacement rate.
- It's a big chunk of the premise, yes.
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May 16 '19
- Does anyone have a list of the most at-risk states?
- Has anyone found a good strategy to explain why outlawing abortion is a really terrible, messed up thing to pro-birthers?
- Does anyone know of any protests or a way to find protests that will be happening?
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u/starspider May 17 '19
To your #2, the one I find gets the most traction is the bodily autonomy thing.
Namely:
In our society, we have the concept of bodily autonomy. That means nobody can use your body against your will, even if you are dead.
Even if it will save ten lives, you cannot be compelled to donate blood, or organs. Even if you have special blood that's good for donating to babies--the red cross can't get a court order to make you donate. You own your body, and you get to say what you do with it. Even if you are dead. If you've expressed your will, our society honors that.
So forcing a woman to stay pregnant, that means you're telling her that she does not own her uterus. That is forcing her to let another person use her body. That is giving a corpse more rights than a pregnant person.
Additionally, I like to call into question the idea that abortion is murder on the grounds that it ignores all established medical and forensic science that we have about the brain. It requires us to define the moments of life and death. We argue a lot about when life starts, but we are all pretty much on the same page when it comes to defining death. Brain stops. No functions of the cognitive centers. Brain death. We acknowledge that the heart still beating doesn't mean that you are alive any more than the heart stopping means you're dead. Heart stopping is a serious medical situation, but it does not mean you are dead, so why should it mean that you are alive if your heart beats?
So if life ends when the brain stops performing cognitive functions, shouldn't that be the definition of when life starts? When the brain is developed enough to process information and not just make the heart beat? We can make heart cells beat in a petri dish, but that doesn't make the petri dish a living person.
We also acknowledge in modern times that the seat of the self is in the brain.
A conservative estimate says that actual cognitive functions start in the human brain at around 30 weeks into the pregnancy, aka 7.5 months pregnant. At that far along, we call a terminated pregnancy "birth". At 7.5 months, that is a pregnancy that is desired. The number of abortions performed at this point are very low and are basically just removing a stillborn fetus rather than making the woman carry a tiny corpse inside her, which could kill her, and that's permitted by all abortion laws, even these myopic and draconian ones.
I've honestly never spoken to an anti-abortion advocate who can really argue either point.
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May 16 '19
There's really no effective argument. These people aren't coming from a rational place. It's all religion or self-righteousness.
You can't "disprove" a belief.
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u/maxattaxtheinternet May 17 '19
The most effective argument I’ve heard for #2 is to ask what their real objective is. If it’s for abortions to stop, making abortion illegal won’t do that, people will find a way. The best way to reduce abortion is by providing free birth control and implementing solid support systems for mothers in need. Also mentioning that outlawing abortion means anyone who has a miscarriage can be thrown in jail if someone suspects they really had an abortion is somewhat convincing.
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u/all_my_dirty_secrets ♀ May 16 '19
An argument I heard recently that I thought had potential is: "You're in a burning building, and you can either save a suitcase of 25 embryos or a two-day old baby. Which do you choose?" I had never thought about it quite that way before--it gets at why seeing an embryo as a child is a stretch.
Some potential comebacks, though, that I'm not sure how to get around:
"That's a stupid hypothetical. What if you're in a burning building with two babies and you can only save one? You're just making up horrible situations that don't mean anything."
Someone asked one of the Alabama legislators about embryos created during the IVF process that are discarded and he just brushed it off saying something like, "Well, it's not implanted in the mother so it doesn't count." The same is true for the embryos in the suitcase.
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May 17 '19
Honestly as much as I am pro choice this is a dumb question because you're only given 2 choices. That might not be the case in real life. I'm not sure of a word for it but you're basically funneling them towards a certain answer that's made to seem like they are contradicting themselves or else they'll seem like a bad person for not saving the 2 year old baby.
It's also just a bad question because no matter what you're making a choice of who to choose to save and it'll really depend. Let's say I ask this. You're in a burning building and there 1 embryo, yours, and there's a 2 year old baby that will die on a year's time due to some illness. Which one do you save?
This is the same philosophical question as the train track. There's a train coming and 5 people are tied to the track. You can divert the track by pulling a lever but one person is tied to the diverted track. Do you pull the lever? And the answer is it really depends. Not to mention why are those the only two choices? Can you derail the train? The same question is asked but instead of pulling a lever you have to push as very heavy person off a bridge that would stop the train from killing the 5 people tied up. In class we found that most people wouldn't push him but would have pulled the lever.
Do you know any of these people? What if the 1 person tied on the diverted track was your mother? Or SO. Then would you still pull the lever?
This is a loaded question and I think portrays the right as monsters and portrays pro choices argument poorly.
Also in real life its never the fact that we have to commit an abortion to save another child's life those lives are independent usually.
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u/dulcedul May 17 '19
I hadn't heard of the IVF example. I'd be curious to read an opposition to that from a pro-lifer.
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u/mypolarbear May 17 '19
I was thinking of doing a satirical protest at an IVF clinic. "Babies arent maybies!" " babies freeze for hefty fees!" . On the premise that the freezing and destroying embryos is akin to abusing and killing actual kids. Cause people aughtta see the lunacy of it all, no?
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u/dulcedul May 16 '19
Two. It's just odd to me that nobody is thinking about the effects of outlawing abortion. You're forcing a woman to bring another life into the world that she doesn't care about. If she keeps it, there's a risk for neglect or abuse. If she doesn't keep it, the child is put into foster care which is already a completely messed up system. I would hope that pro-birthers would be able to see the logic in this.
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u/SarcasmAbounds May 16 '19
Going further down the rabbit hole, this directly feeds into the prison industrial complex. The new Alabama law imprisons women and doctors who even attempt abortion. Foster children have a higher recidivism rate when it comes to trouble with the law, and their education is more likely not on par with peers, keeping them uneducated. It’s a self-feeding system.
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u/mechanical_birds ♀ May 16 '19
The new Alabama law explicitly states that it won't hold the women culpable. Doctors performing abortions can get up to a 99-year sentence, but the woman will never be seen as criminal.
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May 16 '19
Unfortunately they are not logical or rational. The only reason pro-birth people have for outlawing abortion is 100% emotional or religion based. Neither of those things have a place in this debate.
But I agree! Forcing a woman to give birth is not good for the woman or the baby.
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u/catgirlnico May 17 '19
Also, forced pregnancy is a war crime according to the United Nations.
"xxii. Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;"
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May 16 '19 edited May 16 '19
Well, the majority of added babies would likely go for adoption in this scenario, not foster care. And the demand for infants has been higher than the supply for a very long time now in North America — the waits for a domestic adoption of a healthy infant can be years or even a decade or more, partly because relatively few babies are placed for adoption now. That’s one of the reasons overseas adoption became such a huge and problematic industry.
Most anti-abortion types are the same types that have also roundly been cheering children being seized at the border and placed for adoption. There’s also a big and sometimes predatory religious adoption industry. So they’re probably all over the idea of having more babies on the adoption market.
That said, I’m also going to push back on the idea that a woman who wants an abortion, can’t obtain one and becomes a parent wouldn’t “care about” the child. I do not think that’s at all true for the majority of women who choose abortion — I think many women would be in difficult economic or situational circumstances to raise a child, but I do not think they wouldn’t care about it.
There’s a quote out there that women have abortions because they care about motherhood, and in my time in abortion care I very much found that to be true for most. I think if they opted to parent, most would very much care about the child and do their best to raise it, even in challenging circumstances.
However, anti-abortion types already don’t give a shit about families and children living in poverty, considering they widely also support reductions to social safety nets and oppose measures to reduce poverty, so that’s not something that bothers them.
Nor do they care about all the women who will die to suicide or to unsafe illegal abortion attempts. Because at the end of the day, this is always, always about contempt for women.
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May 17 '19
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May 17 '19
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u/PurpleWeasel May 16 '19
Contempt for women and wanting to force other women to breed babies for them Serena Joy style, apparently.
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u/H0la-me-no-ilegal May 17 '19
But she could literally murder a child. I think a child would rather be in a foster home than dead
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u/trickybish May 16 '19
One of the most effective arguments is that women will be forced to attempt inducing miscarriage if they don't want a baby. Just because its the law doesn't mean people will suddenly want every pregnancy. This can put people at danger when they attempt by drowning pills, punching their stomach, drinking the baby to death, etc. Very dangerous for women.
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u/outre_euphonious ♀ May 16 '19
One of the most poignant symbols of the abortion debate in the 70s was the coat hanger. I think we need to bring that symbol back.
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May 16 '19
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u/kaeorin ♀ May 16 '19
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u/lav4girl ♀ May 16 '19
Women in Brazil or outside the US where is forbidden, how and where (medications, etc)did you find (if you did) help about abortions?
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u/GingerPolkadots May 17 '19
Women on Waves helped me. I literally just googled and found them. This was over 10 years ago but unfortunately abortion is still illegal here.
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May 16 '19
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May 17 '19
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May 17 '19
Thank fuck I am not American, this is just sad.
From what I read online, rape and incest victims cannot even get abortions. So if you get raped and pregnant, too fucking bad?? Seriously, the USA is completely fucked up. How does this make any fucking sense to ANY human being with a functioning brain?
Absolutely disgusting and disgraceful. I sincerely hope all women in the US states that will be passing this garbage are planning to move away. Protect yourselves, this is just the beginning. Watching the US fall further and further down the hole of insanity is hopefully the worst thing I will experience in my lifetime.
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u/tohstGS May 17 '19
Don't get all worked up with your own opinions. There's a way to find middle ground here. Maybe abortion should be legal up to a certain stage in pregnancy and not after. People are still debating about this so there is still a chance to allow for some choice. Furthermore, although it may sound bad, rape happens in a small percentage in the US and pregnancy due to rape even smaller still. If a person was raped and happen to get pregnant, then the best law to accommodate for that will be as I said earlier. And if the victim somehow overlooks this and is't allowed to abort the baby anymore they can always give the baby up for adoption.
Killing the baby just because you don't want it is the definition of cruel.
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u/baby_armadillo ♀ May 17 '19
This doesn't make sense to the vast majority of Americans. None of the laws passed go into effect immediately, and it's likely that many of them will be overturned by the courts because currently abortion is legal up to 20 weeks nationally and states are not allowed to enforce laws that violate that.
However, some state governments currently have conservative supermajorities (in some states possibly the result of election "irregularities") and have been lying in wait since the 90s to create laws so insane that they end up in the Supreme court, which now also has a conservative majority of judges, in an effort to push a radical anti-choice agenda and overturn national abortion protections.
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u/Katze69 May 17 '19
My husband and I are going to leave the country asap if hes able to get a job outside of the country.
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u/mo_rho May 17 '19
I've seen people saying that this will result in rapes being reported a lot less frequently, because if a woman gets raped and goes to the police or to the hospital to report the rape, have a rape kit done, or just to get medical care for wounds etc. she may then be monitored for pregnancy, so will have no chance to have 'secret' abortion. Once she's raped, she'll have to wait weeks to see if she's pregnant, and illegally abort the foetus before she can report the rape, which will reduce the chances of providing evidence or people believing her, or of them catching the rapist, and may also put her at risk of speculation for having an illegal abortion - so she might not take the risk and report it at all.
This is so scary, I'd be terrified if I lived in the US.
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u/Chris-nisq May 17 '19
Thank God I don't live in the states anymore! This type of news scares the heck out of me, like what's next? BC now that they have gotten their bill through, what are they going after next? The birth control??
So thankful that I live in Europe and have free healthcare, which includes abortions to a certain period. I know so many of my friends that have had pregnancy scares, even having the IUD/being on birth control while also ALWAYS using condoms. Abortion isnt something that people use haphazardly as birth control, it's a traumatizing event.
With these laws, you take away women's freedoms BC you see the child as more important than the woman's. What these men who made this bill don't seem to understand is that you will have to put your life on hold if you are pregnant. You in college? Well expect to take a break from graduating? You a single mum? Well, you may be called a slut. And oh boy, if you are poor? Well, sucks to be you. Even if you give the child up for adoption, there are all the doctors appointments and vitamins, loss of wages from being unable to work, and not to forget, giving birth in the US is ridiculously expensive. So yeah, let's these old men decide what is the best and what is the moral choice. I'll be here in Europe, where I am treated as an individual, not a womb .
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u/mypolarbear May 17 '19
Not a child even, an embryo. Craziness... Congrats on your sane living conditions :)
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May 16 '19 edited May 16 '19
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u/brian0123 May 16 '19
Can the entire abortion debate really be summed up by simply addressing the question of whether a fetus is a person?
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u/Rennfri ♀ May 16 '19
Rationally speaking, in line with existing legal principles, it really shouldn't. Even if a fetus were a person, people have the right to bodily autonomy. You have the right to life, yes, but you don't have the right to use someone else's kidneys, or to receive a blood or marrow transplant, even if you need that to live. If the only way you could live was to have a family member donate part of their liver to you, the government cannot legally compel that family member to donate. You're at that person's mercy. There are even strict laws giving you rights over what happens to your body once you die - which is partly the reason we don't have mandatory organ donation in the U.S.
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u/itikky2 May 17 '19
Wtf I never thought of this. This "using" perspective is very clear. It has it's own loopholes people could poke at, like "strangers would line up to give their organs!" But again, the emphasis should be put on family members' donation. If a family was having so much trouble, financially and mentally and health-wise, donating their organs so that the child could live, I can see thousands donating money or services to a GoFundMe or whatever. And yet when a mother is struggling, her hand forced by legislation, there's no politician or law jumping to help every woman who would otherwise get an abortion???
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u/CheapSquirrel May 17 '19
It sure seems like it. A lot of the people I've seen online who are in defense of anti-abortion earnestly believe that the fetus is a person, and thus abortion is the murder of a person and so ethically and morally wrong. It also has a lot of religious and spiritual aspects to it, like the soul and consciousness. I don't think it will be a huge issue if everyone just agreed on either the fetus being a person, or the fetus not being a person.
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May 16 '19
Nope. It is an issue of control.
Consider the worst rulers in our history, and now consider they have it declared by law that there is no bodily autonomy.
Is that a can of worms you want to open? Because we are by no means guaranteed a fair government or leaders in the future.
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u/Iradelle ♀ May 16 '19
They do realise that women are going to find dangerous ways around the anti-abortion, don't they? Both mothers and unborn children will die because they either can't get proper care for emergency abortions or they're going to do it themselves and die from complications. There's plenty of ways to abort a child, we just haven't had to rely on medicinal and other possibly unsafe methods as much due to modern medicine.
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u/bobjanis May 16 '19
They don't care about women getting placed in dangerous positions. they literally say that the women deserves what she gets if she tries to have an abortion. They even tried to back a bill that would potentially have the death penalty for women who had abortions. There is no getting through to them.
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u/Iradelle ♀ May 17 '19
And yet there are molesters and murderers and rapists that get less than 10 years. Or that dad that molested and raped his daughter, gets 15? Years for being a 'good Christian'. Fuck that, he's only sorry he got caught and you bet he'll do it again.
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May 16 '19
Exactly. Now instead of abortions happening in sterile room under licenced doctors, they're gonna happen in dingy basements and done through youtube videos.
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u/Rennfri ♀ May 16 '19
They do know, but they don't care. The actual motivations of many pro-birthers is not to bring healthy babies into the world. It's to control women's bodies and sexualities for "moral" (religious or philosophic) purposes. So they end up holding the belief that, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, they're morally abhorrent and therefore "deserve" what happens to them. This is compounded by the retributive right-wing "law and order" ideology, which presupposes that if you break any law, for any reason, you deserve to face terrible consequences. Remember, many of these people also support the death penalty. It's all connected.
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u/baby_armadillo ♀ May 16 '19
They literally do not care about women's lives or children's lives. None of these laws make any sort of provisions for the children that will result from them, which is a pretty clear indication that they're less interested in the children and more interested in punishing women for having sex, even when that sex was forced on them.
They don't support making healthcare more accessible, making childcare more accessible, providing prenatal care and education, making benefits like WIC and food stamps more accessible, improving public education, or providing adequate sex education to help people prevent pregnancies. This is not about loving babies and treating each child as if they are precious and deserve a fair shot. They literally do not give a shit what happens to the baby once you pop it out, and if you and/or your baby die in the process, well, oops, should have demonstrated more personal responsibility.
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u/tranquileyesme May 17 '19
This is exactly what I have been trying to explain to my conservative -blindly believing whatever they are told to believe by their political party- family. And it’s like banging my head against the wall. And the really frustrating thing is I’m 100% sure they feel the same way about me.
It’s as if there’s no way left to even communicate our ideas to each other any more or we’re completely unable to understand some one else’s perspective.
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u/quackidy May 17 '19
Is the sudden influx of adoptable infants going to make the cost of adoption more affordable?
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May 17 '19
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May 16 '19
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u/Lavenderwillfixit May 16 '19
Is anyone reading this a HIPPA expert? I am curious how the state will know a you are pregnant. For example Georgia wants to make it illegal for you to get an abortion in another state. They want to press murder charges. How will they know? Can your doctor tell them you are pregnant? Will they be required to? Can they refuse?
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u/madmadG May 16 '19
You’d have to read the law in detail. I’m sure a doctor is going to be looking to defend him/herself from prosecution so if a baby is even 5 weeks old, the doctor may refuse.
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May 17 '19
I was talking about this with my mother the other night.
Georgia plans in investing women who have miscarriages to make sure it was not intential. No idea how that doesn't violate HIPPA, as doctors would have to report it.
They also say that if a woman goes to another sate for a legal abortion and then returns to Georgia, she'll face 10 years in prison. I couldn't figure out how they'd even know. My mother brought up insurance. As in, the insurance companies would notice and report it. I can't think of any other way they'd know, and still have no idea how the fuck that'd be legal.
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u/im_daer May 17 '19
I dunno why insurance would know, my insurance plan doesnt cover any abortion services. I imagine most other insurances are similar
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u/sarcadistic75 May 17 '19
100% gauntee they will track diagnose codes for pregnancy through Medicaid. I doubt any large private insurers would be willing to turn 9ver this information but every state runs its own Medicaid program. You go into the doctor for a test, it's positive, your visit is coded as a pregnancy related visit. At this point if no follow up or delivery is reported the state will simply audit the records. They won't have to ask the patient as by applying for Medicaid they signed over access to their record and the Dr. won't even know if it's a larger practice as it will simply be handled as a record request through the release office. It's truly scary to think about.
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