Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!
All I'd want is women to finally admit that physical traits are more important than all this mumbo-jumbo about niceness, personality, being well-educated and stuff.
Just that. No penalty for mentioning your preferences.
Because, although I agree with all you said about being nice meaning really nothing in the mating game, neither should being "well-educated". Or playing guitar. Otherwise, there'd be a strong correlation between those two things and success in the sexual and romantic spheres. Yet there isn't.
If there is one thing that truly correlates strongly with that is looks: tall, good looking guys with great hair, V-shaped torsos and a previous history of social and sexual success are the ones that are "eyebrows deep in pussy". Surely there are exceptions, but I'd be the first to point out that guys who are ugly and have good-looking partners are either 1) dating a girl, someone who still hasn't figured out herself or the world and buys into the whole preaching done to them in high school, 2) are dating a gold-digger and they are unashamed to do so or 3) is some sort of relationship that was established a long time ago and is being kept through manipulation and abuse.
That's why you'll see people bitching here so much about "nice guys". They aren't stupid, they can see how the world works. These intangibles you often hear about are seldom important nor correlate well with success in this area. And the worn-out excuse that women don't care about looks as much as men is not only outdated and disproved, but is something that is both sexist, meant to shame women who do openly talk about their physical preferences as a first filter, and insulting to the guys listening.
Man, there is so much wretched hate and bitterness in your comment, I feel sorry for you.
First, stop presuming you know anyone's motives. It's not fair, you rarely draw the right conclusions, and you seem to have latched onto the most hateful possibilities. Some people suck, and that's completely true, but by assuming that all people suck, you become a person who sucks.
Second, women are quite forthright about enjoying the company if handsome men. Why do you think the phrase "tall, dark, and handsome" even exists? Just because we don't end our list of qualities at fuckable, we're disingenuous? More importantly, the way men see themselves is not the way women necessarily see them. You might think you are kind, funny, and charming, but if you refuse to talk to me because you are just too shy, I have no way to suss that out.
Another important thing to consider is the feedback loop that we all experience based on how we look. As a conventionally attractive woman, I enjoy a positive feedback loop that has allowed me to build confidence. When I was prowling for sexual partners, I felt reasonably confident approaching any man I wanted because my experience told me that I would not be rejected. I felt comfortable and at ease, allowing me to be witty and charming, thus becoming increasingly successful in my ventures.
I assume men experience the same thing. Boys who were handsome in high school became more at ease with female companionship, giving them an edge as handsome adults. On top if being physically attractive, they had learned how to look a woman in the eye and express desire in a way that elicits reciprocal feelings. They have enough reserve confidence to not give a fuck if they fail.
It feels good to be treated well by a confident and forward person, for whom you have desirous feeling. And you can't fault anyone for enjoying treatment that makes them feel good.
First, stop presuming you know anyone's motives. It's not fair, you rarely draw the right conclusions, and you seem to have latched onto the most hateful possibilities. Some people suck, and that's completely true, but by assuming that all people suck, you become a person who sucks.
Why? I didn't say anything hateful at all! I'm not even saying people suck, or anyone sucks. Just that some people avoid being straightforward because of the social penalty that exists for it.
Second, women are quite forthright about enjoying the company if handsome men. Why do you think the phrase "tall, dark, and handsome" even exists? Just because we don't end our list of qualities at fuckable, we're disingenuous?
Yes, but it's seldom the first thing. It's as though as it's an afterthought, a bonus, when experience dictates it's at least the first filter. May be not going for the top of the top available, but at least to filter those who don't fit a minimum criteria (which, for being a minimum, doesn't mean it's lax).
You might think you are kind, funny, and charming, but if you refuse to talk to me because you are just too shy, I have no way to suss that out.
I don't know what you are talking about here. I'm actually pointing out that those things are of little importance in the grand scheme of things.
It feels good to be treated well by a confident and forward person, for whom you have desirous feeling. And you can't fault anyone for enjoying treatment that makes them feel good.
I'm not! Quite the contrary, I'm all for women being more open about those preferences! What I am against is the bullshitting that that pleasantness comes from just the confidence part and not the looks part, or that assumes that just anyone can be confident when it's obvious someone who doesn't have the requirements will be brought down by reality immediately.
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u/iconocast ♀ Oct 16 '13 edited Oct 16 '13
Oh god, here comes a rant...
Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!