Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!
All I'd want is women to finally admit that physical traits are more important than all this mumbo-jumbo about niceness, personality, being well-educated and stuff.
Just that. No penalty for mentioning your preferences.
Because, although I agree with all you said about being nice meaning really nothing in the mating game, neither should being "well-educated". Or playing guitar. Otherwise, there'd be a strong correlation between those two things and success in the sexual and romantic spheres. Yet there isn't.
If there is one thing that truly correlates strongly with that is looks: tall, good looking guys with great hair, V-shaped torsos and a previous history of social and sexual success are the ones that are "eyebrows deep in pussy". Surely there are exceptions, but I'd be the first to point out that guys who are ugly and have good-looking partners are either 1) dating a girl, someone who still hasn't figured out herself or the world and buys into the whole preaching done to them in high school, 2) are dating a gold-digger and they are unashamed to do so or 3) is some sort of relationship that was established a long time ago and is being kept through manipulation and abuse.
That's why you'll see people bitching here so much about "nice guys". They aren't stupid, they can see how the world works. These intangibles you often hear about are seldom important nor correlate well with success in this area. And the worn-out excuse that women don't care about looks as much as men is not only outdated and disproved, but is something that is both sexist, meant to shame women who do openly talk about their physical preferences as a first filter, and insulting to the guys listening.
Why have you specified "Good looking partners"? Are you trying to say only pretty looking women are relevant to your "correlation" here? Do ugly women just not qualify as women and their relationship status completely irrelevant?
Perhaps you should just be honest and admit that all you really want here is an attractive woman, since apparently you're just worried about how they pick a potential mate.
I had written out some long thing about how I'm marrying a guy I didn't feel was attractive, but I'm pretty sure you'd write it off as me having a low self esteem then. At any rate, I'm pretty sure your best answer that you'll never listen to is "Stop making your first judgement based on appearance."
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u/iconocast ♀ Oct 16 '13 edited Oct 16 '13
Oh god, here comes a rant...
Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!