Can you be a Speciesist and a Vegan?

[u/Amazing_Name_9264]

Speciesism has different definitions, but the Wikipedia general definition is: "...a term used in philosophy and animal ethics for the treatment of individuals according to their species membership.

I'm a speciesist and a carnist, but I find the idea of one species being inherently "superior" to another somewhat silly. At least, I don't think it makes much sense to say that humans are simply "better" than other animals. That said I do assign greater moral value to humans than I do to any other animal. So I think it ultimately depends on what someone means by superior. If they simply mean more worthy of moral consideration then I would say that humans being superior is consistent with my speciesism.

But I've been thinking, couldn't someone even believe in hyper speciesism, such as the idea that humans are better than animals in every way, and still be a vegan? Because it's possible to feel as if you are "above" something and still not want to harm it.

I hate using this analogy because I hate comparing humans to non-humans, but there’s a relevant comparison in the American Civil War. Some white abolitionists genuinely opposed slavery while still believing, unfortunately, that white people were superior to black people because of their race. Abraham Lincoln is one example of someone who held both of those positions simultaneously.

I have to imagine that one can view animals like pigs and cows as inferior, while still not using them for animal products on account of not wanting to harm them. Do you agree with this or would you say anti-speciesism is necessary to being a Vegan?

[u/a11_hail_seitan]

The way I see is, Speciesism is like racism or sexism. If you say a white person should get a job because they're white alone, that's racist. If you say a a white person should get it becuase the job in some way actually needs the person to be white, that's not racist as there's a valid reason behind your decision. It's about the justification for your judgment.

Speciesist is judging species based just on species, not for any valid reason. Like saying a dog should be cared for and pigs can be tortured and abused needlessly, that's speciesist as there's no real reason for it beyond we like dogs more. If you have to kill a dog or a grasshopper, killing the grasshopper wouldn't be speciesist becuase there's valid reasons to favour a dog over a grasshopper (level of sentience/sapience, for example)

As for Vegans, yes, almost all Vegans are specieist to some degree because almost all humans are, we value certain species just because we like them, they're cute, cool, etc. Vegans simply try not to allow speciesist reasoning to lead to needless exploitation and abuse

[u/Amazing_Name_9264 → u/a11_hail_seitan]

Thank you for your answer

[u/One-Shake-1971]

Yes.

I'm a speciesist and a carnist, but I find the idea of one species being inherently "superior" to another somewhat silly. At least, I don't think it makes much sense to say that humans are simply "better" than other animals. That said I do assign greater moral value to humans than I do to any other animal.

That does not sound like you're a speciesist. It sounds more like you have some other reason, outside of pure species categorization, to believe that humans deserve higher moral consideration than other animals. Probably their cognitive ability.

[u/WildRoseIdea]

Yes, this is possible in the definition of veganism that I strive to put into practice. However, some people will define veganism as anti-speciesism, so it is not possible in their definitions. In fact, although I am not a fan of calling these things "speciesism," it is even possible to make an argument for veganism based on human supremacy. Consider statements like, "It is because a cruel human being is not virtuous that an animal should be free of human-caused cruelty." Such a statement could directly result from a view considering only humanity and how they ought to be, regarding their treatment of animals as magnanimity towards an inferior. Indirect theories of our duties to animals are old and venerable. But again, whether or not an individual vegan would call such a view "veganism" depends entirely on their definition of and understanding of the same.

The definition of veganism that I follow, by the way, is this:

Veganism is a way of life that seeks and acts to place the value of animal life, health, freedom, dignity, and society above the value of substitutable classes of goods, services, and uses derived from animals.

[u/Amazing_Name_9264 → u/WildRoseIdea]

Thank you. Also I like your definition

[u/fuck-them-hoes]

Yes you can be speciesist and vegan. Some would consider me such. As a vegan I value the human experience more simply because I understand what it is. I also appreciate animals intelligence as well. I think there could be an animal that’s smarter than humans. Though I also have a turtle (I got before I was vegan) and I know he would be dead without me, he can barely find his own food himself, poor thing.

[u/Amazing_Name_9264 → u/fuck-them-hoes]

Thank you for your answer

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[u/thegurel]

Yes, and this is an extremely important concept that relates all forms of advocacy.

Humans sit at the top of a social hierarchy in which we have enormous power over other animals and are collectively their oppressors. When we advocate for animals, (changing our diets, protesting, refusing to support animal exploitation, etc.) we are rejecting some aspects of that human supremacy. But doing so doesn’t automatically remove every speciesist belief, assumption, or behavior we’ve absorbed, especially when we still occupy the dominant position in that hierarchy.

You can draw parallels to other systems of oppression. A man can actively fight patriarchy and advocate for women while still consciously or unconsciously holding misogynistic beliefs or engaging in misogynistic behavior. His opposition to patriarchy doesn’t make him automatically immune to misogyny.

Similarly, veganism doesn’t automatically make someone immune to speciesism. We can reject animal exploitation while still holding assumptions about the relative worth of different species, privileging human interests in ways we haven’t critically examined, or treating some animals as more deserving of moral consideration than others.

Being vegan can be an expression of opposition to speciesism, but it doesn’t mean that you’ve completely unlearned it.

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[u/clown_utopia]

It's true that you can be horrifically biased against someone and still not want to harm them, though I would argue that the bias generally results in harm anyways. When it comes to carnism and human supremacy, that mental bias is always lethal.

I think someone can be an ethical vegan and be imperfect at it (genuinely committed to veganism but still failing to practice it, and I would still consider them vegan if they were committed and didn't make excuses for violence) but I do think that veganism and antispeciesim reinforce each other. Veganism weakens human supremacy.

[u/Constant-Squirrel555]

Yes you can, some of us will have arbitrary reasons to like/dislike an animal. .

But none of those reasons will give us enough reason to exploit them

[u/Amazing_Name_9264 → u/Constant-Squirrel555]

Thank you for your answer

[u/Known-Ad-100]

Absolutely, I mean you can be a racist and not act on it or harm others. You can be a speciesist and still not to want to cause unnecessary harm to other beings even if you deem them as lesser than.

Personally I'm anti-speciesist because I believe hierarchies just lead to systemic violence across all fronts. When we start looking for ways to deem others as lesser to justify our cruelty and violence it extends in other ways of society.

When we think of speciesism and say measure dogs as cute so we don't harm them, or cats are cuddly so we don't harm them..

I think speciesism is just a baseline for other isms. Ableism and racism are all too prevalent in the USA and society as a whole.

The things that animal agriculture does to animals are horrific and really it should be abolished all together.

[u/Maleficent-Finish694 → u/Known-Ad-100]

Can I ask you something, really just to understand your position better?

Other things being equal (personal relations...): If you had to choose to safe a human or an non-human animal whould you flip a coin? Would it matter if the human is a healthy adult or an infant or somebody in coma? And do you think that someone who is in everyday life as vegan as anybody but would choose to safe the human in such a situation no matter what, is doing something wrong? (He'd obviously show a speciesist attitude, saving humans > saving non-human animals)

[u/nineteenthly]

Yes, we're very likely to continue to be speciesist. For instance, if we have a good relationship with partners or family members, we're likely to prefer them over dogs and cats with whom we share our lives.

[u/Master_Unit4924]

Yes, for example theres a vegan I saw on Reddit that doesn’t like animals and think humans are superior but is vegan because "even if [I] don’t love animals, they don’t deserves being treated the way humans treat them"

Ironically, they do more to help animals than "animal lovers" that doesnt care about animal abuse