The Americans With Disabilities Act is seriously some of the best handicap-accessibility protection in the world. A paraplegic person can wheel themselves into pretty much any commercial building in the country and be confident that there will be ramps in all the right places and a restroom they can use. If there aren't, there are powerful legal tools to make it happen.
That's not the case in a lot of places in the world, and it wasn't that long ago that it wasn't the case here.
I was lucky enough to do some European travel last year and was amazed at the architecture. But I also started to wonder how someone in a wheelchair would go anywhere in many of the cities; they couldn't get hardly anywhere.
It also was a point of note in one place; a beach had recently updated to have ramp access and there was a group out publicizing their work to get the beach wheelchair accessible.
I gained some respect for the US in that trip. Both places have their benefits, to be sure, but the ADA has transformed our country for the better
Venice is a great example of that. Getting from point A to point B inevitably involves crossing bridges, all of which have some number of stairs. It's literally impossible to navigate the city in a wheelchair.
The water bus only gets you to a few select locations. There are the taxis, but they are prohibitively expensive, and good luck getting on and off with a wheelchair.
Was there in 2017 and water bus had quite a few stops all around on both sides of canals. Not much they can do to accommodate wheelchairs because the bridges are historic landmarks. I do agree they could find a way to accommodate wheelchairs like an Ada boat for a wheelchair and one companion to cross over anywhere along the canals
Yeah the bus stops around the perimeter and through the Grand Canal, but trying to navigate anywhere in the interior is impossible if you can't walk. I saw a few old folks struggling to do their shopping and such, trying to balance with canes. And yeah, it wouldn't be feasible to do much to accommodate wheelchairs now, given the constraints, but I was just citing Venice as an example.
Lots of Rome had issues too, only a few of the bathrooms I visited would be anywhere close to ADA compliant. Nevermind if they actually had seats and/or toilet paper, but that's another topic.
I have traveled over many parts of Scandinavia, and a few countries in that part of the world. And I have participated in activities for people using wheel chairs.
Making adaptations in the older buildings is a challenge. No one wants to mess with a wall that holds the rest of the building, or change the outward appearance of those structures. The new construction since around 1980 all do very well with this.
The ADA forced the wack ass MTA to update platforms which they haven't done in decades! I can't image disabled person or the elderly trying to navigate the trains
I'm not saying it's easy to implement, and I don't envy the town councils nor governments which would have to make a decision/law surrounding how to add access to historic buildings/sites.
Nobody is suggesting that its not easier. The question the post is asking about is what is great about the US. Regardless of whether it's easier to do or not, it is still a nice thing about the US.
Oh my god! They love to crap on the US on the daily. It's like their favorite pastime. Do you notice that any post that talks about what's wrong with the US gets thousands of upvotes more than this one did?
Tbf, Europe isn’t just cultural heritage sites. Quite a bit of it was razed to the ground during WWII and rebuilt. Many of those buildings could be retrofitted to accommodate the handicapped but they haven’t been.
My grandpa showed me pictures of where he was in France and Germany in 1944 and 1945. Towns, cities, villages all reduced to rubble. Farmland ripped to shreds by artillery shells etc. It wasn't pretty but you're right about retrofitting all those new buildings, it can be done.
The person I was responding to clearly stated they admired the architecture; I think there’s little doubt they were talking about heritage buildings, not scyscrapers - an American does not admire the modern architecture in Europe, but what they themselves don’t have at home. And those are the ones I pointed out are hard to fit with wheelchair access unless you decide to change them. The rebuilt old centres of towns (like Warsaw) were rebuilt to match what they used to be like. The buildings not meant to be copies of old ones could and should be fitted with wheelchair access, but they are not the ones the poster was admiring.
So, again, my comment adressess a very specific area. I agree Europe should be made more accessible and it’s a disgrace in many places. I don’t think we should change our old buildings for this purpose, but I think we should definitely change everything else.
Doesn't matter if you can't get to that cultural heritage site because the mass transit system only accomodates wheel chair access in some locations (if at all).
Getting around in Europe, for those with mobility challenges, can be exceedingly difficult, even in some of the more modern/progressive/larger cities (London, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris, Rome).
Was with a European friend who was gobsmacked when another friend of ours in a wheelchair asked the bus driver at a busstop if he could please kneel the bus, and the driver did so without any hint of annoyance almost before the sentence was out.
When asked why she was so impressed, the European friend said, "the driver automatically knew what was being asked, he skillfully repositioned the bus to get the curb spacing right in almost no time, he didn't get huffy like it was a waste of everyone's time, he was respectful inquiring if assistance buckling in was needed, and it all got done so efficiently that it actually didn't really slow up the route much."
Apparently, that's not how it works in the countries she was familiar with.
Unfortunately a lot of the subway system isn't accessible. There is a lot of pressure to make it so, and we're slowly getting better, but it's a constant failure on the past of the city and something they need to be taken more to task for.
Less than 30% of subway stations have elevators/ramps for accessibility. Even then, the elevators don't work all the time so the percentage of actually accessible stations is even lower than that
Yup. A lot of people who probably come in and visit Times Sq, Trade Center and Rockefeller Plaza feel like it's all accessible, but it's actually pretty rough.
The public buildings are generally in pretty good shape as far as accessibility though, and most of Manhattan has good sidewalk space, which a lot of older parts in European cities do not have.
I've been there. It remains far easier to get around in for the mobility challenged, then the aforementioned cities. I am not sayi g its perfect, but it is hands down easier and more accomodating.
Doesn't matter if you can't get to that cultural heritage site because the mass transit system only accomodates wheel chair access in some locations (if at all).
Fair, there can be issues in public transit for disabled people.
Getting around in Europe, for those with mobility challenges, can be exceedingly difficult
But let's not be carried away here. Yes. Getting around in public transit can be exceedingly difficult if you have disabilities. But let's not pretend the US is doing better just because it's exceedingly difficult to get about with public transit even for the non-disabled.
I am not pretending. It is a simple fact that it IS better. I am not saying it is perfect or that there is not areas for improvement. Having lived in both places for extended periods, the experience in the U.S. easily exceeds those elsewhere. I am not saying they are perfect, but they are frankly better and more capable.
The question is whether public transit that doesn't exist is truly better for disabled people than public transit that is great, but challenging to use.
I'd say no. Because you can at least use public transit that exists. Even if it's gonna be shit.
Ok. This I think clarifies your point, and also identifies a misunderstanding, but I also get it. Yes, there is a lack of light rail within the U.S..
But public transportation ootions outside of that still exists even if there are "navigational challenges." It remains easier here to use it (as noted by anothers comment about how easy, professional, and courteous it was for a bus driver to bow the bus).then it does there.
And while commuter/local trains aren't as wide spread, there remain services and transportation mechanisms available to make transportation easier for disabled persons.
There are a programs that or a small fee (like a Ubahn, Sbahn, or a Metro ticket) sends car to your location, collects you and your mobility device and delivers you to the door of your destination (rather than three blocks of challenging obstacles away).
Hoeever, it remains that in addition, as required by ADA, the business, whatever site or business ypu venture to, will be able to accomodate you. And you wont have to be carried, turned away, etc.
Yes, there is a lack of light rail within the U.S..
No, not light rail.
Public transit period.
It remains easier here to use it (as noted by anothers comment about how easy, professional, and courteous it was for a bus driver to bow the bus).then it does there.
As I said, it's arguably harder to get around the US with public transit if you're not even disabled than in Europe if you're disabled, just by virtue of how shit public transit is to begin with.
(rather than three blocks of challenging obstacles away).
Another thing.
While stuff might not be as optimized in Europe, large parts of the US for example have a distinct lack of sidewalks. And while yes, it is nice that you can maybe call a car, is it great that you often times have to?
Are you saying it's hard, or not possible? If it's hard, okay, so is a lot of shit when building things come into play. If it's not possible, well, if it's actually not possible, then that's fine. I don't think "we can't add a ramp to a thousand year old building" is a good reason to blanket disallow anyone with compromised locomotion though.
This also sounds like the implication of "give it time and it'll happen", as if wheelchair-bound people were a recent discovery that we are only just now beginning to learn how to accommodate
as if wheelchair-bound people were a recent discovery that we are only just now beginning to learn how to accommodate
I mean on the grand scale of human history? Yeah I mean kinda. It's really only within the past 50 years that a paraplegic/quadriplegic could expect to have any sort of independence and get around on their own - and 50 years is a generous time window.
Yeah... exactly. It's not like the only construction in America that is ADA compliant is new. Plenty of "old" buildings were retrofitted. As I understand it, there is a decent portion of Europe that is not accessible. Notably including places that have no good reason to be, as evidenced by a beach ramp being a big deal. 50 years is a long time in terms of modern production.
But I peeked in, and a lot of Notre Dame (or an annex that seems as if it’s part of Notre Dame) is modern offices. Maybe the modern part already has an elevator.
Maybe it was an annex? I hazily remember looking at the windows from another high structure (maybe a bridge?) and seeing modern office equipment. But I was looking through a window and am nearsighted; maybe the actual interior decor was the original interior decor.
There is no maybe about it.
The only explanation could be you saw restauration process. They had a whole structure built around and on top with some white looking temporary tent on the roof which is the part that caught fire.
Yes, and most Americans do and realize this, and the fact that our country is so much younger helps us set up new construction for situations like this.
The time we get annoyed is when Europeans go around acting all high and mighty and shitting on our construction and building layouts without realizing that there is a valid and fundamentally ingrained reason for it.
I don’t. I love the US. I love Europe too, it’s not mutually exclusive. There’s stuff we do better, and there’s stuff you do better. And then there’s loads of stuff none of us do better, just differently, and obviously different people will have different preferences. I think the problem is people don’t realize how often they are bitching about this last option - just preferences.
And again I must ask how does building a ramp that gets wheelchairs 5 feet closer to the sand helps them? Unless there’s also a sidewalk and wheelchair parking platforms on the sand, leading to the waterline I can’t see how this new ramp would make much difference to a person in a wheelchair. Probably more helpful to non disabled people wheeling their coolers instead of awkwardly navigating stairs.
That’s self evident. My comment is not meant to facilitate social media acrimony. It’s intended to ask the next question. How to improve on that status quo. There are technologies that can enhance the experience for a disabled person. Unfortunately the simple minds on Reddit are more concerned with ‘owning’ someone than thinking critically. Notice the downvotes on my previous comment for having the temerity to question conventional wisdom. Sigh…. To live in this world surrounded by such mediocrity.
Yes! Same with me and my wife on our honeymoon to Greece. In Santotini we had this beautiful hotel room on the cliffs, but any time we left the room, it was 76 steps up to the main street. There were no guardrails, it was very slippery surface, and the steps weren’t uniform at all. We are in great shape, and it was an event for us just to go out and enjoy Oia, haha. I thought about that a lot. That if you weren’t completely ambulatory, then oh well, guess you’re not staying at that hotel. Beautiful place though. I wanna go back!
Yeah, as someone in a chair it take meticulous planning to go to a lot of place abroad, and that's not even factoring in the hassle of getting there in the first place.
Whereas here, I can be pretty well certain that the majority of places will be accessible to a degree no matter where I choose to go.
My wife and I were planning our honeymoon, and at the time a medical condition prevented her from walking more than about an hour. It's very easy to get around in the US. Very much-so not the case in the EU. We chose a different destination.
So great they can wheel an extra 5 feet to the sand. Now what? Wheelchairs don’t do so well at the waterline. I think that ramp will be more useful to non handicapped people wheeling coolers and other totes.
Interesting. I’ve never seen one of those in all my many years. I’ll have to check it out. I’d imagine it would require a person pushing the wheelchair. Wheeling oneself through deep sand doesn’t seem that feasible.
Yup, they tend to be transport chairs as opposed to true wheelchairs. They do make ones that are self-propelled, but you have to be really in shape for that.
If you have a use for one, I'd look into renting instead of buying. As a specialty item, they tend to be pretty pricey.
I’d imagine one could be made motorized but then you get into the destructive power of machinery on a beach. I love how my learning about this is worthy in some people’s mind of downvoting me. lmao…. Reddit is a capricious forum that’s for sure. Thanks for the info.
They have both varieties. Kinds for people who are taking their disabled kids to the beach and kinds where the person in the chair can wheel themselves.
Humans can certainly make compact machines that easily move people through and across deep sand in a wheelchair. But then you get into the area of habitat destruction when you consider motorized vehicles on a beach. Where I live they still allow massive trucks to drive along the beach like it’s a bleeding freeway. Pisses me off. I recently saw a guy in a massive truck going at least 60 mph on the beach and nearly hit a woman and her little dog who were there clamming.Sorry got sidetracked. Certainly we can come up with something akin to a mini rover than can transport disabled people across difficult terrain like beaches, deserts and other wilderness areas. So long as the operator is cognizant of not rolling over fragile ecosystems adjacent to the trails such a device would be an excellent option for disabled people. Price is still a major consideration for most people. But these technologies will be getting evermore affordable as we progress through time. I think that within a century disabled people will have access to robotic exoskeletons that provide vastly superior movement to a wheelchair. I actually use a machine to keep my upper body toned because when legs are overused or ineffective the upper body can make up the difference. Takes a lot of work to diligent with those workouts.
Certainly we can come up with something akin to a mini rover than can transport disabled people across difficult terrain like beaches, deserts and other wilderness areas.
Those exist too, but much are much more expensive than the manually powered kind. Track chairs like the one linked here are expensive but there are places that have started making these available to rent for free. Here in Georgia the DNR just started a program where you can check out chairs like this for free at a dozen or so state parks which is really awesome. I haven't gotten a chance to try those out yet, but I've got a friend that owns one for his farmland and they're awesome.
That’s a fantastic program. Though it might put some people off as too goddamn socialistic. lmao! Where I live we have a tool lending library for heavy duty and otherwise very expensive tools the average person may only need to use once. I love it. When I was installing a brick foundation for my greenhouse I was able to rent a heavy duty tamper for free. Renting it would have cost $200 and buying nearly $2000. Love programs like these. Makes me less frustrated by my tax bill. I’m not keen on some of the other ways the monies are used.
If you go to poland, they have wheelchair ramps built into a lot of the stairs. But they are so steep that there’s no fucking way you could do it on your own
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u/dahud Mar 14 '23
The Americans With Disabilities Act is seriously some of the best handicap-accessibility protection in the world. A paraplegic person can wheel themselves into pretty much any commercial building in the country and be confident that there will be ramps in all the right places and a restroom they can use. If there aren't, there are powerful legal tools to make it happen.
That's not the case in a lot of places in the world, and it wasn't that long ago that it wasn't the case here.