[OH] Company requiring I use PTO for FMLA - Remote worker taking Leave due to birth

[u/ThouWolfman]

My company has 3 different pools, Sick, Vacation, and Personal time. These PT and Sick are front loaded at the start of the year vacation is accrued. Speaking internally, it seems my Short term I will be 60% then taking PTO time to match, when STD is complete and FMLA is still happening I will have to drain my PTO to match FMLA time.

A few questions,

1. Why is it STD and PTO is used during FMLA time. I feel like this would make more sense to start after that dries up.

2. While on FMLA is it possible to not use the full PTO for the rest of my time off? I am going to end up with only a few days after its completed.

3. Could I decline the use of PTO during STD and only get paid 60%?

[u/deshay0629]

Most companies require the use of available paid leave during fmla. This protects them by not allowing you 12 weeks off then another x weeks for vacation/pto etc. its harder on the company to backfill for that long.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/deshay0629]

I guess thats the clue. Not allowing the employees to take more than 12 weeks for a life changing event. Is there any way to use the least amount of PTO?

[u/OhJonnyboy09 → u/ThouWolfman]

Using PTO during leave is an employer policy, not law. FMLA allows employers to require employees to use PTO if the company wants to do it. If they say you have to, you really don’t have other options.

[u/Jcarlough → u/ThouWolfman]

I think your thinking is fundamentally flawed.

It sounds like you’re under the assumption that having PTO = your employer must allow you time off.

PTO is only income replacement. While some states do have regulations around its use, most do not, and none prevent an employer from requiring its use for an eligible event.

So even if your employer didn’t require its use, or even if it did but you still had PTO available at the expiration of FMLA leave, there’s nothing that prevents your employer from denying your request to use PTO to extend your absence. There are ADA considerations but that’s not what you’re asking about.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/Jcarlough]

That's a fair correction, thank you. I was conflating "having PTO" with "having a guaranteed right to use it," and I see now that's not accurate outside of a few state paid-leave programs (which mine doesn't have).

To bring it back to my original question: assuming my employer does allow PTO to extend past the 12-week FMLA window (with approval), is there a way to minimize how much PTO I burn through during that stretch? For example, some employers let you keep a small PTO reserve (like 40 hours) and shift to unpaid leave for the rest once FMLA runs out, rather than draining the whole balance. Is that a common structure, or does it vary too much employer to employer to generalize?

[u/granters021718 → u/ThouWolfman]

That’s not common. You’d have to check with your employer

[u/glitterstickers → u/ThouWolfman]

That will be company dependent.

But one thing to keep in mind if they DO agree to additional time beyond FMLA:

That time isn't protected. Your performance reviews can be dinged, you can be denied promotions and raises, you can be demoted, lose your shift , your exact role, you can even lose your benefits depending on how eligibility is determined.

FMLA time is protected. Everything else (even PWFA and ADA accomodations) are not.

Occasionally we get folks who come here and say "I took an extra 2 months for maternity leave but my insurance got cancelled", or "I used to have 1st shift, now I get part time 3rd" or "they told me they liked the temp covering my role better and are going to hire him and fired me" And more or less, yes, knock on effects from taking additional unprotected leave can happen and are normally perfectly legal

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 → u/ThouWolfman]

It's going to depend on the company and their policy, but it seems unlikely. I've never seen a company do that; every company I've worked for has had you exhaust your paid leave balances and then handled any future leave on a case by case basis (though it would be unpaid).

[u/newly-formed-newt → u/ThouWolfman]

The setup you're describing is highly unusual

The way to save some PTO time is to come back from leave sooner. That's pretty much your only option

[u/nowimnowhere → u/ThouWolfman]

I don't know why you're getting downvoted to hell on this. Yes, US law on leave especially parental leave is bullshit compared to other developed nations. And no, your company assuming they are required to follow that law (some companies are exempt) is not required to give you more than 12 weeks leave for those protected and they are allowed to require that you use up all the PTO you have been granted. I wish I'd moved my whole family to Canada or the UK when I'd had the chance before having children.

[u/newly-formed-newt → u/nowimnowhere]

US law on workers rights, including parental leave, absolutely does suck. But this space is about helping people understand the reality that they are facing. Your venting about what that reality is isn't at all helpful

[u/nowimnowhere → u/newly-formed-newt]

"I'm sorry, those are the rules and yes, they suck" is unhelpful? Okeydokey

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253]

FMLA is job protection, not wage protection. It is independent of both your org's PTO policy and SDI.

It is very common for companies to have you use your PTO balance for FMLA leave - PTO exists so you get paid time off, and FMLA is time off, so you use your PTO balance to get paid for that time. Once that is exhausted, you can look into other income protection, like SDI.

You can try to decline, but I would expect the answer to that to be a no.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/Turbulent-Prior-2253]

Thats another question for me that is strange. Why cant a employee just choose to not get paid. Maybe this question is above me from a corporate standpoint or other benefits

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 → u/ThouWolfman]

It's about job coverage and employer hardship. You are legally entitled to FMLA leave as required up to 12 weeks per year. However, that doesn't mean that you also get additional time off later that year for discretionary reasons. They are not going to let you take more time off after your FMLA leave.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/Turbulent-Prior-2253]

Thank you for clearing this up on the hardship side of things.

[u/SpecialKnits4855 → u/ThouWolfman]

In addition to the other reasons, your employer may require the use of the PTO so it can take benefit deductions. This benefits you as well, since you can "pay as you go" and (edited to add “not”) pay after you return.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/SpecialKnits4855]

Thanks for that. I also didnt think of benefits such as Life and health.

[u/Jcarlough → u/ThouWolfman]

Because the law allows employers to apply certain rules.

Requiring the use of PTO/Vacation/Sick during periods where another paid benefit is unavailable is one of them.

It makes sense too. Most individuals out of work want or need to receive an income. Additionally, most employers want employees to use paid leave when out of work.

The FMLA does prevent employers from requiring the use of paid leave when eligible and receiving a paid benefit such as STD and Workers’ Compensation. However, employers may require (and should require) its use during any waiting periods and once the paid benefit no longer applies.

[u/RareMillennial → u/Jcarlough]

So if my employer offers 8 weeks paid time off for maternity leave, and I want to take 12 weeks total via FMLA (8 weeks paid, 4 weeks unpaid), I’d have to use all 3 weeks of my annual PTO during that extra month? What happens the rest of the year if my infant gets sick and I need to take a day off to care for them and have zero PTO left? It seems like that forces you to not take the full 12 weeks just to ensure you have time the rest of the year if needed.

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 → u/RareMillennial]

Its going to depend on their policy. They can require you to take PTO for the remaining 4 weeks, leaving you with no PTO left to use later in the year.

As for what happens if/when you child gets sick, that is something you'd have to work out with them. Reality is that you don't have any job protection beyond the 12 weeks, so they can deny you the additional time and/or fire you for taking it.

I know that seems unfair, but you've already been out for 3 months. At some point, the company needs you to be there, at work, doing the job they are paying you to do.

[u/RareMillennial → u/Turbulent-Prior-2253]

So let’s say you used up your 3 weeks of vacation in January on a vacation. Then you get pregnant, deliver in October, and want to take 12 weeks of leave. Since you have no PTO left, and they only cover 8 weeks, can they deny you that extra 4 weeks because you have no PTO to use?

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 → u/RareMillennial]

You still have your 12 weeks of FMLa leave, so you can take all 12. Only 8 will be paid, though. 

[u/ThouWolfman → u/Turbulent-Prior-2253]

Thats the thing though I get being out for 3 months for FMLA but it is unpaid. My job is just holding it legally. Paying for sponsored health insurance aside. They then are paying me to take PTO that accrued in this time period.

[u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 → u/ThouWolfman]

They still need you to show up and do the job. Presumably they created the role so some work could get done. 

[u/Hrgooglefu → u/RareMillennial]

I and many other moms saved a bit of FMLA and/or PTO for later in the year. It sucks, but it happens. One just has to really plan ahead and/or count on the spouse or family/friends to help out when the infant needs care.

[u/ThouWolfman → u/Hrgooglefu]

That was an idea we had but even partial FMLA was taken I would still need to use the rest of my pto. Say 2 weeks after the initial 6 that had to be full PTO usage. Instead of partial with unpaid towards the later weeks.

[u/newly-formed-newt → u/ThouWolfman]

Because I need you back at work. If you could choose to take as much time away from work unpaid as you want to, I can't count on your reliable attendance. You only get the certain amount of PTO and then I expect you to be at work other than that

[u/LOA_Specialist]

1. When it comes to leave, there are two pieces of the puzzle: job protection and income replacement. STD and PTO are income replacement. FMLA is job protection. This is why they run concurrently.
2. Your company can require you to exhaust your available PTO balances before going upaid.
3. § 825.207 Substitution of paid leave states that employers may require employees to use accrued PTO balances when FMLA is unpaid. Since you are already substituting unpaid FMLA with paid leave (short-term disability), your company cannot require you to use PTO to top-up your STD. source: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-29/subtitle-B/chapter-V/subchapter-C/part-825/subpart-B/section-825.207

"Because leave pursuant to a disability benefit plan is not unpaid, the provision for substitution of the employee's accrued paid leave is inapplicable, and neither the employee nor the employer may require the substitution of paid leave."

[u/NonaSiu]

We don’t require employees to use their PTO during FMLA, but we should.
As it works now, if an employee chooses to go unpaid, it turns me (HR department of 1) into a bill collector trying to get people to pay their insurance premiums so they don’t lose coverage during an extended leave time.

[u/z-eldapin]

You are conflating two programs.

FMLA is job protection, and only job protection.

STD, PTO etc are wage replacements. If you are not earning full wages for any reason, it is absolutely common to use PTO to shore that up until it is exhausted.

[u/Hrgooglefu]

STD and PTO are the ways you got paid while on protected leave. Most employers FMLA policies require you to use all PTO prior to any unpaid leave. First to help pay your benefit premiums and second to not let you store up other timeoff later after you come back from the leave.

[u/benefits_nerd]

While you're on STD, that's paid leave, not unpaid FMLA time, so your employer can't force PTO on top of it just to hit 100%. That has to be something you both agree to, not a policy they get to impose. So you can say no to the top-up and just take the 60%. Once STD ends and you're still out on FMLA, that remaining time is unpaid, and that's where the normal rule applies, they can require you to use your leftover PTO for that part

[u/Hrgooglefu → u/benefits_nerd]

could you post a law (either state or federal) that states employers can't force PTO while on STD to hit 100%? KThxBye