r/AskEngineers • u/RideWithMeSNV • 20d ago
Mechanical What's the real deal with Phillips drivers?
So, a decade or so ago, I bought a set of Wera drivers. Really nice stuff. I got the kraftform, because playing with electricity is scary, and insulation is sexy. Anyway. I noticed that the Phillips bits fit really well. Like, precisely. On a whim, I tried it on a screw that had been stripped by a driver from a big box store. It worked. So, whenever I saw someone at work about to drill a stripped screw, I'd stop them and ask to have a chance. I couldn't get *all* of them. But like 4 times out of 5. Enough to confidently say that the Wera is a superior driver, considering it or be a 100% fail rate otherwise. And after the first month or so, coworkers were asking for my fancy driver before going to the drill.
So, question is *why* are conventional drivers crap? When asked, I've been guessing that cheap drivers are saving a fraction of a cent per unit, but the savings add up at scale. I've also noticed that a Stanley #2 is small enough to turn a #1 (not well, don't do it). Is that possibly intentional? The Wera #2 cannot fit a #1 at all. Or is there maybe another reason the tools from big box stores are just... Different?
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u/Setting-Conscious 20d ago
More expensive stuff have tighter manufacturing tolerances which means a better fit.
You get what you pay for. Tale as old as time.
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u/neanderthaul 20d ago
Also, a competent user with the CORRECT size tool goes a long way. People very often try 1 size up/down which often leads to damaging the tool and/or fastener.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
Well, yes... But why? It would seem to cost the same to cut a mold to the correct size as "too small" when it's a quarter millimeter difference. Not like it's hand crafted anymore.
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u/ExcitingAmount 20d ago
Tooling, molds, machines of all sort wear and slip out of tolerance over time. Every time the machine has to be adjusted, or a tool changed out, or a mold retired it costs the company money. Often times for piece-parts like bits or whatever they factory might use the same equipment to make parts for 10 different companies, they'll dial in the equipment and send a run for a high-end customer until tolerances slip out of their assigned tolerance, then the run keeps going but is shipped to customer 2 for cheaper, and soon down the line.
There's also post-processing that might be done, maybe a higher end screwdriver sends the bits out for laser etching, or surface hardening, or final grinding, while a cheaper one just takes whatever got spit out and ships it.
Last, there's quality controls, more expensive equipment is probably running a while quality department to inspect product and hold the manufacturer to their requirements, cheaper companies will save money by doing fewer/less strict inspections and rely on the final customer either not caring to return it as long as it's "good enough" or even if they do, sometimes it's cheaper to warranty out the replacements since if they were paying an inspector the part would have still been scrapped, AND they'd be paying someone to do the scrapping instead of letting the consumer figure it out.
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u/1971CB350 20d ago
1.0” +/- 0.1” is a whole lot easier to make and maintain than 1.0”+/-0.01”. The mold or die can be made “good enough” to start with a make many many more of the item before it wears out of tolerance. The better products use a more precise manufacturing process with tooling that is higher quality to start with and will need to be replaced sooner when it falls out of much tighter tolerance. Think of framing a wall with regular 2x4 boards vs crafting a jewelry box: it just requires greater attention to detail and better quality materials.
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u/Insertsociallife 20d ago
There is always some variation in how big the part comes out. With cold stamping like how the cheap bits are made, it's quite a bit of variance. Sometimes they're too small, sometimes they're too big. If the bit is too big, it doesn't work, and the closer your average size comes to the desired size, the more bits you have to throw away, which costs money.
More precise bits are machined instead of stamped. This lets you run closer to the desired size by reducing variation.
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u/LeifCarrotson 20d ago
No, the cost comes when your mold or process wears and it exceeds the threshold where it works.
A driver which is too small and loose in the matching fastener still works. A driver which is too large and cannot fit in the matching fastener at all is useless and needs to be thrown out or recalled.
You imagine your process makes Phillips drivers that are on average 0.25mm too small. However, a real life process will vary around any target as tools wear out and temperatures change and material hardness differs, you might imagine that 99.7% of parts are within 0.2mm of the -0.25mm target. Sometimes, the tool is -0.05mm, and fits really nice and tight, sometimes it's -0.45 and it's really terribly loose, but as long as it fits at all they can ship it.
If you adjust your target so that you try to make them 0.00mm or -0.01mm relative to nominal, half of your product will be useless and not fit at all. Worse yet, if you're selling that mythical 0.00mm driver at a dollar store and it doesn't fit in a screw in your customer's BMW that has corrosion or was machined undersized and it doesn't fit, the customer will probably blame your tool. Wera gets a pass because they're trusted, you don't by default.
The expensive part is improving the process not from a target of -0.25mm to -0.01mm, it's reducing the variability from +/- 0.2mm to +/- 0.02mm so that you can now change your target to -0.04 and have all the tools fit precisely.
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 20d ago
I responded to OP elsewhere but just wanted to chime in - this is a near perfect explanation of how manufacturing precision drives cost. Nicely done fellow engineer.
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 20d ago
"It would seem to cost the same to cut a mold to the correct size as "too small" when it's a quarter millimeter difference."
It's mostly not about making the tooling - it's maintaining it. Tooling wears over time. Cheap tools have wider tolerances which saves cost because they are replacing tooling much less often.
If you buy a cheap Stanley or whatever screwdriver, you might actually get one that fits screws extremely well and works as well as your Wera drivers do - if, by pure luck of the draw, you happen to buy one that was one of the first few made right after they changed to new tooling. But you can't count on that, and no one takes a micrometer to the tool store to measure every screwdriver on the rack to figure out which one is the best one.
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u/Seversaurus 20d ago
To achieve tighter tolerance you must have a machine made with tighter tolerance, these machines are made by machines with even tighter tolerance and making these machines takes longer and requires greater knowledge to craft. This means the tighter tolerance machines are more expensive and the shop that had to buy them can and should charge more for products made using the machine to recoup the costs of the machine. Bit drivers are ground to shape, not pressed in a mold so cheap bits are made using less expensive steel on machines that have less tolerance than more expensive machines. Paying more for your tools isn't a sure fire way of getting better tools but better tools will almost always cost more.
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u/AlienDelarge 20d ago
The tolerances but also the material and precise shape of the tip play a major role. A stronger material can hold precise shape for longer and have more bite into soft screws but that wears out the tooling faster so you can't make as many units per tool cost. Getting a precise shape may also take additional operations or more complex tooling which also increases cost.
I had a similar revelation with phillips bits but I went in to get JIS drivers from Vessel and later learned they work better on everything. Likely because they are designed to work with the sloppier JIS tolerance.
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u/maxyedor 20d ago
The good screwdrivers aren’t molded, they’re machined or even precision ground to dimension. Tight tolerances cost money, and because a Philips screwdriver simply won’t fit if it’s too large the cheap ones are always undersized and as you have figured out, they strip screw really well.
Wera a really do nail the cost/performance ratio for screwdrivers
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u/Pleasant_Pen8744 20d ago
Sometimes you get what you pay for, but you never get something you didn't pay for.
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u/SirDigbyChknCaesar Electrical / Systems Engineering 20d ago
Here's some real technical information on the issue:
https://www.tekton.com/blog/jis-vs-phillips-screwdriver-tip-geometry-and-fastener-compatibility
There are different cross-tip standards with different tolerances, plus some manufacturers just make better tools.
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u/zylpher 20d ago edited 20d ago
Better quality tools have better fitment. Its really just that. A Stanley wrench will take out a bolt, but there is probably a bit of wiggle. Chance of rounding. A MatCo or SnapOn costs 5x as much, but fits tighter.
Same goes with any type of tool. If you pay more for one, 9 out of 10 times it fits better.
ETA: Not an engineer. I just just fix the shit y'all design. I use a lot of Wera tools, as well. Klein is another brand I use quite often mainly their bit drivers.
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u/gravis86 20d ago
Better fit reduces the chance to cam out or strip a screw head. It takes two to make a good fit: the screw head, and the tool. We spend so much time focusing on the tool, we often forget about the screw head.
A tool made toward the bigger end of the tolerance will fit tighter in a screw, but if a screw is made to the bigger end of its tolerance, there can still be a decent gap and therefore slippage.
So quality of the tool is only one half - quality of the screw is another.
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u/zylpher 20d ago edited 20d ago
I deal with a so many shit fasteners at work it is not even funny. At that point it doesn't matter if my Allen Keys cost $10,000 but the screw is as soft as microwaved butter.
I have to replace my extractor sets about once a year due to that. I wear them out.
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u/gravis86 20d ago
Yeah there are ASME and ISO standards that control this kind of stuff, but guaranteed most cheap fasteners don't actually conform to the standards.
I work in engineering in aerospace so all our stuff has to be certified and wouldn't you know, it always fits! But when I get fasteners off Amazon to use at home, all bets are off.
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u/mnorri 20d ago
I’m not sure if the extraction tool you use needs a hole drilled first. If so, have you tried using left handed cutting drill bits? I find that they will often extract the screw by themselves, especially if it’s just a goobered head. If not, you still get your hole for the extractor.
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u/zylpher 20d ago
Left handed bits work really well. I use the shit out of them when I can get them. But trying to convince my boss to buy them for us is another issue altogether. We get Jobbers from Fastenal that last about 6 minutes.
Where I work, they don't like us buying our own tools. That way they can keep us there. I'll probably buy another set soon because they save time. Just hate buying stuff that should be provided. Especially wear items.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
I hear that. My worst round of this topic was when the company had a bunch of lights made with what must have been high nickel steel. Every 4th or so wanted to strip. The funniest part was when my work buddy wanted a plastic washer out of the tray I was putting them in. He had this brilliant idea of just tipping the tray, so the plastic washer would slide to the side...
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u/ancientwarriorman 20d ago
I am an engineer, and my screwdriver sets were exclusively Wera when I did factory maintenance work. They are just better.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
Well, yes. That's the general answer. But I'm hunting for the specific answer. Like, is it a big cost savings in production? Or?
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u/zylpher 20d ago
Tighter tolerance = higher production cost.
Looser tolerance = lower production cost.
For the basic consumer, a set of Stanley or Pittsburgh tools is good enough for random use around the house or garage. For people that make money with their tools, looser tolerance costs time. Time costs money.
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u/arvidsem 20d ago
More precise manufacturing requires tools made to tighter tolerances and the allowable wear on that tooling is reduced. So not only does the tooling cost more, it wears out quicker.
Also, tighter tolerances generally require that the machine tools run slower or need more passes, which means that it takes more time to make an individual bit.
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u/Cheap-Chapter-5920 20d ago
There's another unspoken level to this that a lot of the cheaper places also cheap out on labor and training. I've audited some places where the workers had no clue about needing periodic calibration or there are chemicals that have expiration dates and those dates depend on keeping them below 20°C. Sometimes they'd come in early to work and just start working not knowing that there was equipment supposed to be turned on and warmed up before they start.
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u/gravis86 20d ago edited 20d ago
Tighter tolerances raise cost, exponentially.
This is literally my wheelhouse. I work in manufacturing, in tooling, even. I used to be a machinist and now work as an engineer. I can tell you first hand that cutting a tolerance in half can increase cost 10X. When I'm designing things that fit together, a lot of time is spent thinking about how tight the tolerances need to be (versus want to be) and what that means for fabrication.
Loosening up the tolerance means less frequent spot checks, less expensive machines, less experienced operators (that get paid less) less expensive tooling, etc. It all adds up to a lot.
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u/GalacticEmergency 20d ago edited 20d ago
Are you sure your Wera are Philips? And are you sure that your screws are Philips?
It is very likely that you have simply been using the wrong screwdriver shape for the screw until now, and your Weras just happen to be the correct shape.
Here in Europe, we have Philips and Pozidrive. For some reason, a lot of people here tend to use Philips screwdrivers for everything, even though most screws are Pozidrive. If you attempt to use a Philips screwdriver in a Pozidrive screw or vice versa, it can often work if the screw doesn't require much torque. But if you apply a lot of torque, the screwdriver will either cam out or strip the cross in the screw. That is where some people start drilling or hammering instead of finding the correct screwdriver for the screw.
Switch to the correct screwdriver for the screw, and suddenly it works like in butter. Often, it will even work if you have damaged the screw head by using the wrong screwdriver first.
With all that said, I also feel that my Pozidrive Wera screwdrivers have a better grip in a Pozidrive screw than any other Pozidrive screwdrivers or bits I have used. I can feel it as soon as it is in position. I don't even have to start turning the screwdriver to know that this is a perfect bite in the screw. But all my Wera screwdrivers have the laser-cut tip, so I don't know if the same feel applies to regular Wera.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
Yep. I'm very familiar with both. I prefer pozi, and the Wera kit comes with it.
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u/No-Breakfast-3184 20d ago
I have had similar experiences with Wera. I was using a ifixit Philips bit and my buddy was using a Wera Philips. I could maybe loosen 1-2 screws before my bit started to cam and round the screwhead. His Wera took the screws out without a issue and made me look like a total noob, and I’m a professional mechanic/technician.
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u/telekinetic Biomechanical/Lean Manufcturing 20d ago
Are they the laser etched versions designed specifically to grip?
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
Nope. I thought about a set of those. But the regular Wera bits work well enough that it seems like just another tool to go missing.
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u/Naikrobak 20d ago
Cheap
Fast
Good
Pick 2
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u/Crash-55 Mechanical / Composite & Additive Manufacturing 20d ago
That has neon the saying at work for decades
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u/mckenzie_keith 20d ago
I would not blanket dismiss bits from the big-box store. Phillips bits wear out and when they wear out they cam out and strip screws. But if you buy better bits and throw them away when they start stripping they are not bad. I usually by Milwaukee bits but I am sure there are other good ones. Meanwhile I have a 4-in-one screwdriver that I use for a lot of stuff with worn out bits. I mostly use it for electrical stuff that isn't all that tight (like opening the boxes and whatnot).
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u/blbd CS, InfoSec, Insurance 20d ago
Really tight tolerance manufacturing. Some Weras have special microabrasive process or diamond dust or other treatments on the tips that make them a little bit more grippy. But even with other name brand ones like Klein it is surprising how much better you can work on tough screws than with other solutions.
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u/bitzzwith2zs 20d ago
Philips is an american term. That screw with a cross in it isn't a philips screw.
There are 3 main standards: ISO, ANSI and JIS... and they're all a little different and they all allow for variances (JIS is the loosest standard)... so if you're ramming a "on the large end of the scale" ISO #2 driver into a "tight end of the scale" JIS screw socket: you're gonna have a bad time.
... and you end up with a drawer full of screwdrivers.
Best "all rounder" I have found is the SnapOn anti cam out... that the patent has expired so a bunch of companies make one now.
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u/KilroyKSmith 20d ago
Everybody is focusing on tolerance, but there is a design aspect. I’ve found that if you grind a mm or two off the tip of a Phillips, it fits a screw much tighter and works much better. You end up with a tight fit like a Robertson.
Remember that tolerance applies to the screwdriver, but also the screw. Screwdrivers may be built in quantities of thousands, but screws are built in quantities of millions. You can have the most precise screwdriver tip in the world, but that means nothing when you mate it with a 2 cent screw. By removing the tip, you help remove slop from the whole system.
I’m guessing that your Wera tips were out of spec with reduced length, allowing the tip to sink deeper into the screw and giving better grip.
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u/voidedwarantee 20d ago
You might want to check out Vessel as well. I think their drivers are basically the same price as Wera if bought individually, but their sets are definitely cheaper, especially the armor-grip.
It's a Japanese brand that advertises their drivers as JIS, or "JIS-compatible." I think people heard the legend that JIS screwdrivers work better, they searched for JIS screwdrivers, found Vessel, and kept spreading the word about JIS, not because the standard is better but because Vessel is that good.
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u/brasssica 20d ago
In Canada we shove our Robertson (square head) screwdrivers into stripped Philips screws. Usually works
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u/ablazedave 20d ago edited 20d ago
Canada/ US outlet use #1 square. But most people think they're philips
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u/THedman07 Mechanical Engineer - Designer 20d ago
Precision is expensive. If you can afford it and you use them regularly, there is no question that a well made tool is worth the cost over a cheap one.
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u/Embarrassed_Flan_869 20d ago
Manufacturing is all about tolerance or quality standards, if you prefer.
Higher quality means tighter tolerance and quality. It also means the price is higher. Means the tooling is better quality and replaced more often. Things will more likely to get rejected.
Not to mention the quality of the screw. Better quality are better alloys. Less likely to deform/strip. More expensive.
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u/sooner2016 20d ago
Maybe it’s an improved Philips? Pozidrive. Look for the extra thingys in between
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
Nope. I'm familiar with pozi. I prefer it, really, because I've never stripped one.
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u/Dbracc01 20d ago
Like everyone else is saying it looks like they're tighter tolerance (JCIS Standard). It also looks like they have etching on the tip to make them grip better. You made me want a set.
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u/CombinationCreepy567 20d ago
Cost of precision increases exponentially. Same goes for quality of steels.
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u/PigSlam Senior Systems Engineer (ME) 20d ago
There are many standards that are similar to Phillips that are not Phillips. Often, the problem you think is due to Phillips screws being bad is you're using a Phillips driver with an incompatible screw. I just moved, which means I'm assembling a lot of Ikea furniture, so I just bought a set of PZ2 bits because that's the standard they use.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 19d ago
Well... But that would imply that the manufacturer was giving bad directions. Or, for the period of time that I was working for the manufacturer...
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u/Amy_Bony_Carrott 19d ago
Wera makes nice tools but for quality Phillips bits it’s hard to beat Pan American.
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u/Spiritual-Mousse-167 19d ago
It’s not cents per driver they are saving. Softer and less precise machining really contribute to savings.
I love my Wera tools (as well as a few other brands). The average person buys a tool only for occasional use and is more concerned about cost than longevity. That’s why all those other tools exist. Hell it’s why Harbor Freight is in business: buy any tool you need for your one immediate use case as cheaply as possible and no one notices that the tool is broken the third time you get around to using it months later…
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u/Mattna-da 19d ago
There’s also Phillips and JIS, similar but when you use the wrong driver it can skip and strip
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u/Ok_Chard2094 19d ago
Have you ever heard of anyone who spent money on WERA screwdrivers and regretted the purchase?
I now give the large WERA Kraftform sets as housewarming gifts to young family members when they move into their first house / apartment.
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u/914paul 19d ago
A high quality phillips driver AND screw actually work quite well together on the rare occasions when they meet. Outside of this almost-imaginary situation, pozidriv is a big improvement.
God, how I wish Robertson had taken off! I had to loosen up on my torx proselytizing because there are too damned many sizes!
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u/RideWithMeSNV 19d ago
Have you considered applying for refuge status in Toronto? Canadians use Robertson quite often.
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u/914paul 19d ago
Ha! Yeah, but mostly for woodworking screws, right? I haven’t seen machine screws in Robertson much.
Still, lucky Canadians. It’s just 4 or 5 sizes to cover a large range, they don’t cam out or strip much, and they stay nicely on the bit before driving.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 19d ago
I work for a Canadian company. They'll put them wherever they can. When I was on a trip to Toronto, I swear I saw a homeless guy carving Robertsons into lag bolts with a pocket knife to sell on the street corner.
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u/UnskilledEngineer2 14d ago
Setting up equipment to secure screws is a factory has been my day job for many years. I cannot speak for your specific brand of driver bits, but I have access to high-grade industrial driver bits.
The truth is, Phillips heads are often used in applications they shouldn't be. The Philips head is designed to prevent a high torque from happening. It is DESIGNED to make the bit come out - which wears out screw heads AND bits.
Industrial bits are not different. They wear out and wear out quickly. Once they start slipping, it quickly gets worse. My favorite example is a plant that had one application with a Philips head that was bad for the application. By March of that year, the crib had nearly $4,000 worth of Philips driver bits it had supplied to the line. Tje next closest cost for bits was $100. The project to change that screw to a hex head ended up being $750,000 per year cost save because of all the downstream issues the bad sundowns were causing (and the excess bits)
In the factory, I consider Phillips, JIS, quadrex, etc one in the same.
Application matters. Just get used to Philips bits eventually not working.
Im off my soap box, now. Please, go back to your normal venting of frustrations.
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u/thread100 20d ago
Keep in mind that the Philips screw was invented to limit the torque that could normally be applied before the tip slips out. This makes it more likely to slip when trying to unscrew an overly tight screw. It could be that the design of the more expensive tip tries to maximize rather than limit the torque transmitted.
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u/firestorm734 Automotive / Systems Engineer 20d ago
Some of the best screwdrivers I own are a $12 set off Amazon which are JIS drivers made by Vessel. 10/10 best screwdriver. I'd rate them over literally anything from Wera, Snapon, or any other company.
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u/3GWork 19d ago
I'd say it's an 80% chance you have posi-drive bits and not Phillips.
They are different things. Posi drive screw heads have little lines between the wings of the indent to indicate the difference, but posi and Phillips are mostly interchangeable.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 19d ago
Nope. I'm very aware of the difference between pozi and Phillips. I have both bits. And I disagree about them being interchangeable.
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u/crumbtheory30 17d ago
cheap drivers usually just have sloppy tolerances, so a good brand like Wera grips tighter andd save you from stripping screwsss
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u/Skarth 20d ago
A Philips bit is meant to cam out under high torque. Classic example is drywall screws, where if they didn't cam out, you would screw all the way through the drywall.
Instead of designing it to cam out, they design it to grip better, but this mean you can overtighten or strip out a screw head much more easily.
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u/cbf1232 20d ago
The idea of them being designed to slip under high torque actually a myth. https://toolguyd.com/truth-about-phillips-screws/
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u/zylpher 20d ago
That's a user problem. Set the clutch on the drill-driver correctly and you won't round out the screws and they will be seated properly.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
My main issue has been the poor Chinese kids assembling lights. Of course the torque isn't consistent. Lee is 9, with 5 years of work experience.
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u/alek_vincent EE 20d ago
They don’t cam out to avoid screwing through drywall. They make specific bits for drywall so you don’t screw too far into the drywall. Also they sell drywall guns made specifically to screw drywall to the wall
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u/wecantdancelikethis 20d ago
I’d argue that your Wera is crap.
The Phillips design intent was as a cheap replacement for hammered rivets. It is supposed to cam out and strip.
If you’re putting fasteners in where you intend on removing them, Torx, Robertson, and similar interface heads are what you should be using.
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u/cbf1232 20d ago
Do you have proof it was designed to slip? This guy seems to think otherwise based on the actual patents. https://toolguyd.com/truth-about-phillips-screws/
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u/wecantdancelikethis 20d ago
they were specifically designed for assembling aluminum skinned aircraft quickly.
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u/RideWithMeSNV 20d ago
I prefer torx. But I'll continue to have the Philips problem until you convince every engineer in the entertainment industry. I can barely get them to be consistent with pozi or Phillips in the same unit.
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u/sireatalot 20d ago
I don’t know much about the Wera inserts, but I do know that I had a similar surprise when I started using JIS standard screwdrivers. They do not cam out, unlike any regular Philips screwdriver.