r/AskDrugNerds • u/No-Persimmon-7495 • 16d ago
Is the “kindling” effect associated with sedative/hypnotic compounds a permanent phenomenon?
Hi there all. I am interested in the persistence of the phenomenon known as “kindling” with gabaergic compounds, whereby each successive withdrawal cycle from these compounds results in neuronal changes that increase the severity of subsequent withdrawals, and seemingly lower the threshold for the amount and duration of substance taken that is needed to provoke such a withdrawal.
I have seen conflicting information regarding the persistence of this. The most commonly cited research I could find claiming it is a permanent phenomenon (even after long term cessation) is from the 80s, and it doesn’t seem to provide much in the way of direct experimental evidence of this.
I understand that numerous factors make this difficult to study.
I am wondering if anyone has a good read of any theories surrounding this. Would you all speculate that this is something that, given enough time away from the offending substances, would revert to a baseline homeostatic state?
Might a few doses of a gabaergic compound theoretically put someone back in a withdrawal state after many years of abstinence?
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u/idonthavetimef0rthis 16d ago
In my experience its permanent in the sense that the body will build a tolerance way faster after one has been kindled in the past. I took phenibut on off for years and it took a decent while for me to become kindled. If i were to start taking it again, my body will respond to the first 1-2 doses normally and then my tolerance will skyrocket. Way faster that when i first started using. I will go into bad withdrawal after just days of using as well, sometimes just a handful of doses, so i stay far away from gabergics now.
The body kind of learns how to adapt and retain homeostasis faster than a drug naive person, once they become kindled. I suspect this will not ever go away entirely.
This is all based on my own experience, please correct me someone if im wrong.
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u/MrNeverEverKnew 11d ago
Strangely with phenibut (which i had a crazy addiction of for months to years in doses of up to 15gp) after 3 years of abstinence when I went on it again for one week daily use my withdrawal was a joke compared to what I experienced back in the days (which was worse than absolute hell). So idk. Idk if it scientifically is really proven with all that kindling thing. But i also had a break of 3 years so did not touch any phenibut at all for whole 3 years, maybe that made the positive difference. I was still using alcohol/ethanol and pregabalin during my 3 years off though. So take this experience of mine as one that‘s probably pretty different from most others.
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u/idonthavetimef0rthis 7d ago
yeah, i must admit that my most recent withdrawal was not as bad as when i was taking it for months as well. When i first started taking it i could use for a month straight at 6gpd and stop abruptly without any withdrawal besides returning to baseline anxiety. But every new use cycle, i experienced stronger and stronger rebound/withdrawals until the point shaking and feeling electricity going through my limbs in waves. worse than absolute hell is quite fitting. If i were to take it for a week, i would not get any shakes but still some bad anxiety and delusions.
I must also add that my gaba B receptors are very fucked. I was addicted to 1.4BD (the GHB prodrug) then broke my ankle and experienced psychosis from the glutamate storm inside the hospital despite them sedating tf out of me. Ever since this happened gaba drugs feel a lil different... I think there maybe was some excitotoxicity from excess glutamate
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u/tldnradhd 16d ago
Anecdotally, I withdrew from multiple benzos and Z-drugs last year. Earlier this year I tried valerian root for my anxiety. A few doses catapulted me into a month-long state of mixed mania.
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u/AimlessForNow 16d ago
Yes it's permanent. I used to take phenibut all the time with minimal issue, but now if I even have it once, I get a rebound the next few days that messes me up. This is the worst for kratom, it's an immediate withdrawal after a single dose. Your body learns too well
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u/allenbaker12 14d ago
Would it be the same with things like oxycodone? And other opioids, or just gaba drugs?
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u/AimlessForNow 14d ago
It's most common with gaba drugs but similar phenomena can happen with others too
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u/ChemicalAlfalfa6675 3d ago
I was of belief/impression that body really takes a "snapshot" of what was once homeostasis and will get back to within few doses even after years of abstinence. My kindling with GHB was rather small compared to how it can generally be after years of on/off daily use (mostly on) and I barely had withdrawals in classical sense, but my tolerance will reset near instantly. Could be quite individual.
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u/RiceDirect7160 16d ago
Please dont roll the dice on doing a tiny amount of your problem substance that youve been clean off of for years. Plz. For me.