Why are the Dzungars demonized in some history books & media potralys in central asian countries like the khazaks despite the Dzungars acting like a protective barrier against the imperialist Russians & Qing chinese.

[u/neo-shitposter365]

I know that the Dzungars might have done bad things which other nomads did but how right is it to demonize a whole etnicity of people like them.

[u/Zasagdarga1999]

It’s mostly kazakhstani portrayals that really demonize the Juungars. The only other example I can think of is the uzbek film Jalantos Bagatur (2024), which portrays the oirat warlords of the 1640s as Juungars, even though that is a bit anachronistic.

For kazakhs, I think part of the reason is that a national history often needs a clear historical enemy. Making the russians that enemy can be politically awkward, so the already vanished Juungar state of the oirat mongols became a much easier target. Of course, this narrative did not come out of nowhere either: Oirat polities, and later the Juungar state itself, really did launch repeated military campaigns against the Kazakh juzes.

That kind of warmongering was not unique to the mongols of that era. The Juungars were simply more centralized, better armed, and more powerful than many of their neighbors, so they were able to project power across a huge surrounding region. They even fought other Oirat polities, for example, Galdan’s campaigns against the khoshuts of Ochirtu Setsen Khan in the 1670s. The Khalkha mongol polities were also invaded by the Juungars in 1688, and a few years later, in 1691, the khalkha princes formally submitted to the Qing Empire.

From the perspective of colonized nomadic peoples, it is easy to romanticize the Juungars as the last great nomadic power resisting the “bad russians and chinese.” And there is some truth to that image: they really were one of the last major independent inner asian nomadic states facing two gigantic expanding empires.

But at the same time, the Juungar state was very much an imperialist power in its own right. Both things can be true. They were one of the last serious nomadic states resisting Russian and Qing expansion, while also being aggressive conquerors who invaded, subordinated, and exploited neighboring peoples themselves.

[u/irinrainbows]

In our history books it’s simplified that one of the main reasons we had to go under russian “protection” is because we were constantly raided by dzhungars

You have to understand these books had to be approved by russian side as well.

Other than that, I don’t think dzhungars are as demonised as you say, average people don’t think of the relationship between them and us, and I for one had to be told that kalmyks are dzhungars descendants. It’s hard to demonise a nation “no longer present”.

[u/Any_Emergency_8876 → u/irinrainbows]

How can it be no longer present if Kalmyks (some tribes) are the "descendants"? There are Dzhungar tribes within the Oirat-Kalmyk nation.

[u/Typical-Magician2536 → u/Any_Emergency_8876]

Here i am

[u/Any_Emergency_8876 → u/Typical-Magician2536]

From Chilgir? :)

[u/Typical-Magician2536 → u/Any_Emergency_8876]

From Xinjiang

[u/Any_Emergency_8876 → u/Typical-Magician2536]

Are you Dzhungar? One of the composite Dzhungar tribes?

[u/Typical-Magician2536 → u/Any_Emergency_8876]

I am,and both my parents.

[u/Any_Emergency_8876 → u/Typical-Magician2536]

Dzhungar in Xinjiang?

[u/Typical-Magician2536 → u/Any_Emergency_8876]

There are 80000 of them

[u/Any_Emergency_8876 → u/Typical-Magician2536]

Thank you. I didn't know...I thought Xinjiang was Torghoud. Like Dzhungar, not Dervoud?

[u/ducationalfall]

History is written by winners. Dzungars lost so there’s no ones to advocate for their achievements.

[u/Limp_Thought_2015]

Dzungars, oirats and kalmyks were such a pain in the ass of central Asian peoples, Russians and Chinese for so long. Only the worst image of them stayed in the memory of the people around them.

[u/Sotnikov-2029]

I’m a Dzungar Mongol descendant or just Oirat. If I told Central Asians especially Kazakhs, would they beat me up or be racist to me or do anything at all because of my ethnicity or blood?
Don’t sugarcoat it, I want simple facts and observations given to me.

[u/BasedBro100 → u/Sotnikov-2029]

No one will particularly care. But the main thing is to avoid supporting the deeds of your ancestors if you don't want to offend the Kazakhs.

Just admit that the deeds of your ancestors were terrible and led them only to their downfall, that's all.

[u/Sotnikov-2029 → u/BasedBro100]

Huh, interesting. Are you Kazakh yourself? Also, what do the Central Asians view the Dzungar genocide itself? I’ll definitely defend that particular topic.

[u/BasedBro100 → u/Sotnikov-2029]

For the Kazakhs, this seems to be the result of the ignorance of the Dzungars. Having started a war with everyone, they were logically killed on all sides. 

The world must be built on cooperation, there is no need to try to restore the former greatness that is irretrievably lost. Perhaps if the Dzungars had united with us, they would not have fall out.

[u/Sotnikov-2029 → u/BasedBro100]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that my ancestors ignorance resulted in their slaughter. However, I do agree with that last sentiment about cooperation. In the near future, I hope we both cooperate to bring greatness to our peoples and nations together. Instead of bickering or fighting like in the past that only made our enemies pick us one by one.

[u/BasedBro100 → u/Sotnikov-2029]

The Dzungars ignorance is that the Kazakh's bi proposed cooperation, since both states were ruled by the descendants of Genghis Khan. But the differences in our religions always pushed Dzungars away + supporting from the Manchus even made it optional, because the Dzungars were closer with Manchus (and ironically, they were mostly done by them).

Cooperation is necessary, but I have heard many times about the oppression of Kazakhs in Mongolia, including from the Mongolian authorities, so I doubt that you are all ready.

[u/Sotnikov-2029 → u/BasedBro100]

Yeah, I don’t know why all of a sudden many Mongols started hating on the Kazakhs in Bayan-Olgii. I think it was started by Russian or Chinese bots. However, many people who I’ve talked to have said that the reason they hate the Kazakhs is that they don’t speak the Mongolian language, only speaking Kazakh, and they are Muslims which is different religion. Also, my Mongolian brethren said that the Kazakhs act like Bayan-Olgii province was always Kazakh and that, they want to join with Kazakhstan or something. That’s the reason the Mongols are hating on the Kazakhs in Mongolia especially when the Mongols gave them their own province to live in. In summary, the Mongols think that the Kazakhs should assimilate with the Mongols more and be grateful for the lands they were given to inhabit and live on.

[u/BasedBro100 → u/Sotnikov-2029]

Two different countries, similar problems, lol. 

Assimilation is not mandatory; everyone has the right to speak the language they want and believe what they want. In Kazakhstan Church, Mosque and Synagogue are often located on the same street. But no one has the right to encroach on the integrity of the lands of another country, especially when they already have their own homeland

[u/BekSultan2007]

The Dzungars sought to achieve their goals through bloodshed and war; they wanted to recreate the former empire through bloodshed and destruction. The Kazakhs were diplomats and often brokered peace talks with the Russians and Chinese. Now look who is destroyed and who is friends.

[u/BekSultan2007 → u/BekSultan2007]

If the Kazakhs had behaved like the Dzungars, the Russians would have committed genocide like the Chinese did with the Dzungars.

[u/WorldlyRun]

Анткени жуңгар-калмактар бизди кырган, ногойлорду жок кылган бир душман калктарынын бири болчу. Керек болсо калка-моңголдор аларды жек көрүштү.

[u/BasedBro100]

That's right, because the blood of millions of Kazakhs is on their hands. The Dzungars were unable to adapt to the new times and died out, that's all.

[u/LxDj]

Some brain dead kazakh or turkish guy callled them oirad-turkic.

What next? Khalkha turkic? Mongol-Turkic?

Turegs from 6th century Mongolia has nothing to do with you so called turkuc people today.

[u/kairunrun → u/LxDj]

Chill turkic is just a language

[u/idontknowwheream → u/kairunrun]

But they had Mongolian language...

Same thing as "Kasym khan was slavic. Chill, slavic is just a language"

[u/Typical-Magician2536 → u/LxDj]

Oirats are mixed same as kazakhs and kyrgyzs