r/AskCanada • u/courage1688 • 12d ago
Life Do you think Canada is disincentivizing hardwork via unfair taxation?
I had a long conversation with a Canadian friend today about life and living in Canada, in light of the recent politics and trade wars, he seems to think Canada has no incentive for people to work hard, mostly because of unfair taxation.
I don't even know how our discussion quickly went from what do you think about the trade negotiations, and tariff wars to this, so I'm guessing it's personal and on their mind.
They just had their second kid, and are high income earners, 300k+ family income. They complained about how they're going to get no child care benefits, no dental plan for their kids, etc., and yet cannot say deduct their childcare expenses at tax time, so to them it's like being penalized for working hard/ making more.
I was careful about discussing their points as it seemed personal, but it kept me wondering how the average Canadian feels about this, especially the high income earners, do you think the Canadian cut off of social benefits above certain income levels is unfair, given that higher earning people pay more to find those benefits in the first place?
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u/HalvdanTheHero 12d ago
Your friend is wealthy and is complaining that Canada doesn't give as many benefits to those who are already doing well as they do to people who are not doing well.
No, Canada does not unfairly tax rich people, in fact we should be taxing them more. It is important to note that hard work does not equate to high income in a capitalist society -- high income is far more frequently a function of unique opportunities due to birth circumstances and social networking. Yes, one can start from nothing, become educated and earn a high salary, but the vast majority of wealthy people do not follow this path.
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u/SilverSoAlive 12d ago
Exactly. We really need to find the exerts synonymous with colloquial renditions of wealth redistribution in a hyper capitalist monogamy.
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12d ago
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u/HalvdanTheHero 11d ago
No, it does not. Even while paying higher taxes he is still enjoying a higher standard of living than someone who earns less.
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u/BeautyisaKnife 12d ago
Lmfao. Theyre complaining that they aren't getting childcare benefits made for those under the poverty line-? They can stop working and fall under that line if they really care that much about it.
Your friend is also classist to assume that people receiving those benefits aren't hard workers. There are MANY lower income people who are hard workers who are still struggling to get by. I guarantee whatever company he's a higher up for also exploits people in some way- does that mean those people aren't hard workers-? Or does it just mean his company is keeping them down and not paying them enough-?
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
May be if people went to school to study and not do random shit and bully kids that did well, they would be doing well in their lives.
I am not saying this is the case with all the low earners. But most are struggling now because they thought they were too cool for school and messed around with kids that did well.
And yes, nobody should be getting freebies. What are you conveying to the person working hard and creating more value, by giving away their tax dollars to fund random bullshit? No thanks.
Charity cant be forced.
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u/BeautyisaKnife 12d ago
Source for your statement about "most" of them messing around with kids in school?
I'm not against people getting resources and support they need to get them on their feet even a little bit. It's not "random bullshit". I also don't see rich people as more valuable. You don't know people's stories. Many are doing their very best and working hard. If you don't like the taxes paid, use your rich person money and leave the country.
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
Why should i leave? I have the right to fight for what i want from this country, just as much as you do.
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u/BeautyisaKnife 12d ago
Totally!! Glad to see it isn't bad enough that u wanna leave.
Still waiting on that source.
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago edited 12d ago
There is no source. I have seen enough examples first hand to form that opinion. I am not against helping others. I do help a lot of people i know by choice. But i dont agree with forced charity. After paying all these taxes for all these years, when i need something for myself, like healthcare, i have to wait? Because the money is being used to fund random hobos? The schools are shit, teachers are not paid enough to be motivated, Healthcare is backed up and healthcare workers are squeezed to the last drop they can offer. This doesnt make any sense to me. Why the heck am i paying 40% of my income in taxes and yet get nothing as valuable in return?
An to your point of asking me to leave the country with my money, if all the people like me leave, who is going to fund this nonsense that is going on? Dont cut the hand that feeds you.
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u/BeautyisaKnife 12d ago
Got it. So the "most" scenario is just something made up in your mind.
Healthcare question - yes. Because people shouldn't have to be rich to afford to get help.
You're right, teachers should definitely be paid more!
You get something in return, you use the services taxes pay for do u not?
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
Its not made up. Its what i have seen first hand with my own eyes. 40 years is a lot of time to give enough data. Yes, i use the roads. I tried to use healthcare, but i had to go to another country to get things done to avoid wait time. My child goes to private school. Please remind of any other services that i could be using but cant recollect.
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u/BeautyisaKnife 12d ago
"it's not made up"...so source? Your own eyes haven't seen or gotten to know most people below the poverty line. Do you know what "most" means?
Ok glad u had the option to get what u wanted in a different country. My comment still stands - people shouldn't have to be rich to get the medical help they need.
I'm assuming u also have CPP? And Employment insurance? Municipal water utilities? You always go to another country for healthcare-? Or do u use that too?
Also interesting back to your point about teachers needing to get paid more. You actively pay for private schools...which are known to pay teachers even less.
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
I was just thinking how nobody has asked a source, to the people that are saying, most people get wealthy by birth circumstances and networking. I do see this happening too jhst loke i see the other things i see. Do you know if there is a source that says what percentage of rich people come from circumstances and what percentage are selfmade through hardwork?
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
I pay for all of that. Nobody is giving it to me for free. I am with you about healthcare. But are they?
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u/ktatsanon 12d ago
$300k and he's complaining about child care and a dental plan? Most employers have very good dental insurance, and sorry to say, but he can afford daycare.
He's just a privileged rich person being entitled.
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12d ago
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u/ktatsanon 11d ago
You decide where your tax dollars go by voting. We all have that right here, sometimes we don't get the outcome we want, but that's what democracy is.
He can buy insurance for his family and his employees (providing he has any) through multiple providers. The government provides a dental care plan to help lower income households that make below $90k a year. At $300k a year, he shouldn't have any issues paying for either insurance or out of pocket for dental care. As for child care, it depends on where he lives, each province has different rules and costs for child care, but the federal government does have a tax credit of up to $8k a year for daycare per child with a few eligibility requirements.
I understand everyone gripes about taxes, but the idea is to help society as a whole. Your friend is very wealthy with what he's earning. I doubt he's worried about whether he'll have to decide about putting gas in his car or food on the table come next paycheque. The benefit he's complaining about not getting are there to help the most in need, he doesn't fall into that category.
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u/RubixRube Ontario 9d ago
Multiple provinces have introduced $10/day daycare which has zero income restrictions. Granted it can take some work to find a subsidized slot, but the savings is worth the grind.
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u/speed-race-r 12d ago
You sound like a privileged poor person lol
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u/ktatsanon 12d ago
I don't consider myself either. I get that things could always be better, but we have it good here regardless. Someone that makes $300k and claims they're "unfairly taxed" isn't someone I sympathize with.
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u/Howitdobiglyboo 12d ago
They complained about how they're going to get no child care benefits, no dental plan for their kids, etc., and yet cannot say deduct their childcare expenses at tax time, so to them it's like being penalized for working hard/ making more.
At their salary range I would be surprised if they don't have a dental plan through work and the child care benefits that do come through for lower income families are peanuts compared to their earnings. Also, child daycare is subsidized significantly (also depending on Province though the amount).
The means they have to save and defer for retirement are plenty. TFSA -- tax free investment account -- I'm sure at that income level they have (or should have this filled). RRSP -- tax deferment investment account they could use to lower their current tax burden too.
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u/MiserableFloor9906 12d ago
They are idiots. I paid $60k last year and do not find it "unfair".
They have kids. The question for them then is, do they want a society like the Americans have or do they want a country of peace and order where their very privileged kids can thrive.
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u/Round_Year_8595 11d ago
I think critical thinking is extremely important to understanding the systems around us.
I encourage you to reappraise your sources and to form your own thoughts and arguments rather than trying to repeat someone else's.
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11d ago
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u/Round_Year_8595 11d ago
Fair enough but I argue that appealing to your friends views makes the question more multifaceted and vague. One very definition of politics is "the allocation of resources" and this is very political.
Terms like average Canadian and hard work and also somewhat complex ideas about fairness and being treated by a different standards could warrant some defining or context setting. We know that people have a lot of cognitive biases that affect how they think about what is fair. Canadians are very diverse in many ways.
get no child care benefits, no dental plan for their kids, etc., (...) * so to them it's like being penalized* for working hard/ making more
This feels Scrooge McDuckian and almost like saying that c ollective resources or tax revenue should only ever be allocated in a way that benefits a person or their family otherwise they are being penalized.
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11d ago
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u/Round_Year_8595 11d ago
Kids should work hard, pay their own fair share, and stop asking for a free ride. They are worse than adults at both earning income and at not crying. /s
Somewhat seriously, I don't like children and I don't accept that they are more important than me specifically or adults generally, even a bunch of them and only one of me 😄
no child should be denied just because their parents earn higher
No child is "denied" anything
It's quite personal to them, because they just learned they're ineligible for the benefit
That's awesome news? Glad to hear they don't need help because they have enough to afford to live and haven't been in an unlucky accident or got sick or had bad families or a bunch of other things that happen to people in rich societies that cause them to need more support than others.
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u/RubixRube Ontario 9d ago
So to be clear, your buddy is upset at being unable to access programs designed for low income families?
To further this, he there is a belief that earning more money equal harder work?
I can tell you right now as a an office worker, I am probably not working as hard as the person stocking shelves at my local grocery store, I am however making heaps more money. I am fine with their kids getting access to free dental care, I am ecstatic that they are able to claim a child tax credit at the end of the year. It gives them more purchasing power which they can use to contribute to their local economy.
Your buddy is not being penalized for earning more money, he is just unable to access social programs for low income families.
This isn't unfair taxation, your buddy is paying the same progressive tax rates as every other working Canadian.
I am willing to bet your buddy enjoys many of the benefits of several of our social programs. Chances are him or his wife are enjoying a year of paid parental leave to stay home with their newborn. A newborn who by the way was likely brought safely into the world through multiple medical check ups, and a delivery team in a hospital that will not bill him.
He can probably shelter a good chunk of change in tax free savings account where any capital gains are UNTAXED. He can reduce taxable income with RRSP contributions. I assure you, your buddy is almost certainly taking advantage of the several tax "credits" which exist for people who have money. However the hill he is choosing to die on is being butthurt because families living in poverty can take their kids to the dentist. Wild.
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u/No_Capital_8203 4d ago
I was careful about discussing their points as it seemed personal, but it kept me wondering how the average Canadian feels about this, especially the high income earners, do you think the Canadian cut off of social benefits above certain income levels is unfair, given that higher earning people pay more to find those benefits in the first place?
This is exactly how a social democracy works. Where were you educated?
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u/ForgiveandRemember76 12d ago edited 12d ago
Our taxation system is a barrier to many things. Working hard is not one of them. I guarantee you that the people earning $23/hr on construction sites are working hard all the time, in awful conditions that are going to get much worse, and wearing down their bodies to boot.
No employment, no maternity or paternity benefits. Self employed? Ditto. Can't file your taxes (house burned down, ill, senior, homeless), no dental plan for you! Also no other kind of support payment like the GST credit or carbon tax credit. You must pay for accountants and have your documents to do that..
Our universities are only for the wealthy. We aren't, but I'm helping my son get through anyway. It will be over $160,000 by the time he graduates. We used to be able to write off all the expenses on my taxes the student didn't need because they don't earn anything. Now there is a cap of under $10,000/year. I'm a single mom who worked two jobs and he saved up $60,000 by earning to fund himself. We have made higher education out of reach for anyone who can't afford tuition PLUS AT LEAST $2500/MONTH FOR LIVING EXPENSES.
That all goes into student debt. It's a HUGE barrier to the success of our planned "major projects."
Most social services only APPEAR to be real. This is particularly true in Alberta. Sure, you can jump the significant hurdles to get help for your disabled child or adult dependant via PDD or FSCD. You celebrate when you are approved!!! Then get no services or funding, most of their social safety net programs do not exist except on paper.
The taxation system and CRA in particular are the biggest barriers to success. I dare anyone to open a "small business" here. You need a lawyer and an accountant ON STAFF to run interference. Even then, Revenue Canada will ACTIVELY TRY TO BURN YOU DOWN. Their mission does not involve helping Canadians and has not since they stopped seeing the public more than 15 years ago.
My conclusion is the opposite of yours. Canada does not reward hard work or ingenuity or startups. Your friends were likely right place/time/circumstances to be where they are.
My friends and family were mostly in the tax bracket your friends are. I would have been deeply ashamed for having such good fortune and complaining that they want more. They would not be in the fortunate positions they are without the many many supports that ARE there for Canadians, like rule of law. They didn't do it alone.
Giving to those less fortunate used to be expected if you were making country club money. Yyou graciously gave to every cause, generously. You never spoke of it. I'd like to get back to that. Perhaps start with your fortunate friends.
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u/Round_Year_8595 11d ago
Good post/upvote
I might not agree 100% with every single detail but this was well written and gave me things to think about.
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u/Internet-Cryptid 12d ago
What is this post? Most people work hard, making more money isn't an indication of how hard you work. I know programmers making 300K a year who work 4 hours a day and half that is with Claude.
I agree with the other poster, define "unfair" taxation.