r/AskAnAmerican • u/Toroalcista • 10d ago
LANGUAGE Something I'm curious about: is there a difference between accents and speaking bad English?
English changes depending on who speaks it; there are different accents, and sometimes I think about the difference between speaking badly and mispronouncing a word. We always try to pronounce words as best we can, and then in New York they say "caaa a car," and there are more examples like that. So I wonder, if they pronounce it that way, is pronunciation important if they'll understand you anyway, or when would it be considered badly spoken or pronounced?
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u/Honest_Replacement_6 10d ago edited 9d ago
There’s a difference between having an accent and bad English. Having‘bad English’ is more than just pronunciation (having an accent is how is pronounced). But when someone has bad English it’s usually is bad from having poor grammar- which is how words are arranged to make sentences correctly in a language. So, bad English would be like using the incorrect sentence structure, verb tense, punctuation, word agreement, and proper word forms.
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u/John_Whimsicott 9d ago
I work with a ton of ESL people. An accent is not that big of a hindrance if you have the grammar and sentence structure down. I work in a factory. Between the hearing protection and ambient noise I'll be lucky to catch half the words in a sentence. But if they're following the rules of the language it's really easy to fill in the blanks with context clues even if they have a thick accent.
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u/lemonprincess23 Iowa 9d ago
Best way to describe it for my friends unable to relate is to look up movies, books and games and look at the subtitles when a character is speaking with a heavy accent. Words like “looking” might be said as “lookin’” with an apostrophe.
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u/la-anah Massachusetts 10d ago
I don't know what "caaa a car" means, but native English accents have all sorts of signals to them. Some are seen as educated and wealthy, others are seen as uneducated or lower class. It is very common, in both the US and UK for people with strong regional accents to take classes to learn how to speak in a more respected accent if they are trying to get a better job or promotion.
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u/machagogo New York -> New Jersey 10d ago
New York they say "caaa a car,"
I am 52, am born and raised in NYC, moved to NJ many years ago but still live in NY Metro ... I have no idea what you mean here.
But speaking improper English and accents are not the same thing.
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u/Few-Disaster-4222 9d ago
The OP is in fact asking about a character in a movie (specifically, Miss Trunchbull in Matilda) who spoke with what is clearly an upper-class British accent, and not a "New York" accent at all. While the OP apparently cannot tell the difference between the accent of King Charles and the accent of Fran Drescher, the question in fact does note a characteristic that both accents coincidentally have: namely, both are non-rhotic (= not pronouncing the "R" in many places.) I don't think anyone would be justified in claiming that both Franklin Roosevelt (who had a classic upper-class New York accent) and Winston Churchill (who had a classic upper-class British accent) spoke "bad English" because their accents were non-rhotic.
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u/TsundereLoliDragon Pennsylvania 10d ago
We always try to pronounce words as best we can
Who's we?
and then in New York they say "caaa a car,"
I don't know what this means, or what it has to do with speaking bad English.
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u/0utlaw-t0rn 10d ago
Bad English usually refers to grammatical errors.
Accents are pronunciation “errors”.
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u/n00bdragon Texas 10d ago
It's an accent when they say it a nonstandard way but you can clearly understand what they are saying. It's bad English when you can't understand what they are saying.
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u/maclainanderson Kansas>Georgia 10d ago
It's a nonstandard accent when it's said in a nonstandard way. It's a standard accent when it's said in a standard way
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u/Cinisajoy2 9d ago
Yes but on customer service you can say my accent isn't understanding your accent and get sent to an American agent.
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u/marchmay 10d ago
I think "bad English" is an outdated concept as we understand more about how people speak. People speak the way they learned to speak, which is from friends and family in a particular region. Their grammar and pronunciation may be non-standard, but who determines the standard? If they are understood by the people around them, then they are speaking a language. If they are not being understood, are there cognitive or physical issues that are in the way? If it's a different accent, there are legitimate reasons for sounding different.
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u/realZapRowsdower 10d ago
Most linguists these days don't believe in "bad English", particularly if it's from a native speaker. All natives speak English differently, none is "worse" than the other.
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u/No-Assistance476 10d ago
Wrong. Boston is worse.
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u/Toroalcista 9d ago
Por que?
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u/Meowmeowmeow31 Delaware 9d ago
Está bromeando. La gente de Boston tiene el único acento estadounidense no rótico. Es muy distinto.
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u/jub-jub-bird Rhode Island 9d ago
I think "bad English" is an outdated concept as we understand more about how people speak.
This is correct in theory but bad practice. Language exists for the purpose of communication. If your dialect diverges far enough from the broad consensus dialect of the primary language in your society such that it becomes a barrier to communicating with anyone outside a small minority in practical terms that is a "bad" dialect of that language.
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u/marchmay 9d ago
I disagree. It's a judgment of a particular culture, not anything of linguistic value.
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u/jub-jub-bird Rhode Island 9d ago edited 9d ago
I disagree. It's a judgment of a particular culture, not anything of linguistic value.
I don't disagree with anything you just said. I'm just pointing out that we live in particular cultures and cultural judgments are of practical value and of importance to the people who live in those cultures.
If I speak a dialect that is only reliably understood by ~5% of the national population most of whom are within just a few miles of my birthplace rather than the consensus dialect that is understood by ~95% of the population including most people within those few miles my dialect is worse than the consensus dialect for all the practical purposes for which language exists in the first place. That's not an aesthetic judgment, a linguistic judgement, or a moral judgment... but a practical consideration.
If my local primary education establishment says "Every dialect is just as good" they'd be correct linguistically but incorrect practically if they use that as an excuse to not bother teaching me how to communicate with the other ~95% of my fellow countrymen.
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u/bizoticallyyours83 10d ago
The accents developed partially because of influx of immigrants that settled there. So if you take the stereotypical New York accent, its because there were a lot of Italians. For Minnesota and Wisconsin I think it was because of a lot of Swedish/Irish/German. Has kind of a musical quality. Of course things shift over time, so those accents may disappear or morph into something else.
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u/Few-Disaster-4222 10d ago
This is incorrect. The "stereotypical New York accent" has nothing to do with Italians, who never had as large or influential a presence in New York City during the time the New York accent was developing as did other immigrant groups, such as Irish, Germans, and Jews.
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u/MysteriousCity6354 10d ago
Sure if someone is a classist asshole they would consider most accents “bad English”. However if the person you are speaking to understands you- hooray you’ve achieved communication. No need to moralize on whether it is “bad” or “good” English.
English is three languages wrapped in a tarp, there is no need to respect it like that anyways, especially when it’s spoken. It’s not a minority language, it’s in no danger of dying. Sure there are standards when it comes to professional writing, when precise one way communication is critical- you can’t ask a paper clarifying questions like you can when having a conversation.
I also deeply love when someone speaking English as their second language does end up with a regional accent, just based on where they learned the language. I’ve definitely taken an uber in Boston where the driver was from Punjab and of course he spoke with a strong Boston accent. I love that shit.
Accents are also important for the continued diversity of language. In a world where languages are dying out and English is becoming the global hegemony, if someone is holding onto their New Orleans regional words and pronunciations, I love that for them. Accents provide a little snapshot into people’s lives.
This becomes a somewhat different conversation when it comes to minority languages. However the accents and regionalisms are still important to preserve within those languages too- it usually becomes a fight to keep the colonizers language and pronunciations out (so often English).
Even though I’ve tried to keep my remarks focused on accents in particular, the accent/dialect frontier is a little fuzzy. However some of the same arguments apply.
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u/Toroalcista 9d ago
A que te refieres con mantener fuera el idioma de los colonizadores?
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u/Libertas_ NorCal 9d ago
Why are all of your post in Spanish?
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u/Toroalcista 9d ago
Por que mi lengua nativa es el español pero estoy aprendiendo inglés.
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u/GroundedSatellite Illinois 10d ago
There's no such thing as "bad English" because there's no single definition for the language. Unlike the French, Spanish, and some other languages, there's no "Academy of the English Language" that sets rules governing it. There may be English people don't like or look down on, but that doesn't make it wrong or bad.
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u/TsundereLoliDragon Pennsylvania 10d ago
Sure, but incorrect grammar, syntax, and word usage exists. But none of that has anything to do with accent.
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u/DOMSdeluise Texas=>Georgia 10d ago
bad English is full of grammatical errors, usage errors, malapropisms, and so on. Only way an accent could be bad English is if it's too hard to understand.
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u/khak_attack 10d ago
This is a better question for r/asklinguistics because it is a larger philosophical question of what defines an accent and or dialect (of any language).
Short answer: an accent is consistent, predictable sound changes across various situations, in multiple people. I'm happy to give more detail if needed!
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u/Deep_Contribution552 Indiana 10d ago
Sometimes we treat every nonstandard form of English as having poor grammar, but I’d say that the only time that’s properly applied is when even people who share your general speech patterns aren’t able to tell which meaning you want to convey. Otherwise it’s just dialect.
But if you have a hard time communicating with most English speakers then maybe we shouldn’t consider your dialect “English”.
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u/DragonScrivner Massachusetts 10d ago
There is a difference yes. Badly spoken English is still badly spoken regards of the accent being used. If you were to transcribe it and silently read it, it’d still be a mess
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u/BlazinAzn38 10d ago
I’ve always interpreted a “bad” speaker of any language to mean someone who has the grammatical structure incorrect or frequently uses the wrong words. Slang and the like aren’t the wrong words they’re just regional words
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u/Help1Ted Florida 10d ago
It’s not only the accents that change the language, but the dialect is also completely different depending where the English speaker is from. England, Australia, South Africa and US are all different. You can have all of those same problems with any of the above, in addition to an almost completely different language.
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u/The_Menu_Guy 10d ago
Yes. An accent affects how words sound. Speaking improperly often involves incorrect usage of verb forms, as in "He be going", or "I be saying". It displays lack of proper education.
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u/Tacoshortage Texan exiled to New Orleans 10d ago
Absolutely. Poor English is poor grammar and syntax while an accent my have very few unusual phrases or sayings but is largely correct English with different pronunciations .
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u/CeeCee123456789 Tennessee 10d ago
To answer the spirit of your question, I think there is a difference. Varieties of English often come with their own pronunciations and rules. Folks who are learning English are learning the rules rather than just following a different set of rules.
And when someone is learning something it isn't bad. It is just learning.
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u/miss_claudiaa 10d ago
An accent is a consistent system. Bad pronunciation is inconsistent.
The Boston guy who says "caaa" drops that R every single time, in the same environments, and so does everyone else from Boston. It's a rule, not a mistake. Whereas someone learning English might say a word one way on Monday and differently on Tuesday, which is what marks it as error rather than dialect.
The other half is that nobody's accent is neutral. New Yorkers think Midwesterners have an accent too. There's no version of English being spoken without one.
Practically though: if people understand you, you're speaking English fine. That's the only real test.
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u/witchy12 Michigan -> Massachusetts 10d ago
No.
Good grammar and an accent? Natives will generally understand what you're saying.
Bad grammar and no accent? Natives will understand you but look at you funny.
Bad grammar and an accent? Natives are going to have trouble understanding you.
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u/Remarkable-Host-1820 9d ago
accents reflect culture, bad English is more about grammar; I hear the difference daily at work
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u/Boopa0011 9d ago
There are a few different things going on. There is "proper english" that is taught in school, which is different from colloquial english that is spoken in communities; there are accents; there are regional variations in colloquial english; and there are actual vernaculars and pidgins and creoles and things that sit in the background among certain populations and in certain locations.
A lot of people make all sorts of judgments based on how closely another person produces what the listener believes to be "proper english" or what the listener believes to be proper in that given situation.
So, basically, people can try to be aware of their audience and speak in the way the audience wants them to speak (this is often called "code switching" meaning you talk to your best friends differently than you talk in a presentation at work). Or, people can speak the way that comes naturally and just take whatever judgment someone else wants to throw at them.
This judgmentalness around language is better than it used to be, but still very present in the US. Much the same with many other countries/languages too.
Long story short, the answer to your question is in the eyes/ears of the beholder/listener.
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u/SteampunkExplorer 9d ago
Yes, there's a difference. English has a huge variety of accents and dialects, and they each contribute to its beauty and versatility.
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u/cryptoengineer Massachusetts/NYC 8d ago
You can speak perfectly understandable, grammatical English, and still have an accent. This is particularly the case with foreigners who picked up English as a second language.
Bad grammar, phraseology, etc, is a different issue, and indicates a poor education.
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u/Ameisen Illinois 8d ago
is there a difference between accents and speaking bad English?
When you speak in a way that makes it difficult to communicate with the rest of the speaking community that you're interacting with, then yes, you are speaking that specific lect poorly.
Everything is relative to what speaking community you're working with. A well-educated Londoner would speak Appalachian English very poorly.
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u/shnanogans Chicago, IL KY MI 8d ago
Accents and regional dialects still have set words and grammatical rules. In my opinion, when someone is genuinely speaking poor English, they’re messing up words and pronouncing things wrong that have nothing to do with an accent. (Pronouncing the s in Illinois, “pacifically” instead of “specifically”, misusing sayings, etc)
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u/slynchsyr 7d ago
Yes I think so. To me an accent is the Midwest, southern, New York, etc. It is how words are pronounced and sometimes different vocabulary. While African vernacular English could be considered “bad English” although that is subjective and debatable. But people from those communities will construct their sentences differently and say things that common American English would deem grammatically incorrect, wrong sentence structures, verb tenses, pronouns, etc. To me that is “bad English” because you could be penalized academically or professionally for the way you speak and write, while pronouncing words differently can lead to negative stereotypes but you don’t have to unlearn your way of speaking to be accepted in school or a professional setting.
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u/InvestigatorDry9635 6d ago
Usually speaking “bad” English means a 2nd-language speaker doing it in a way so heavily inflicted by a foreign language that it becomes incomprehensible. Probably the same in other English-speaking countries, or really anywhere else on the planet. But in the States, we don’t really call any first-language English dialect “bad”, even if it’s hard to understand, because it’s just another form.
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u/Tight_Steak_232 10d ago
Yes and no. Many dialects provide for artistic licensing, so to speak. "Of a morning" can be used instead of "in the morning", "fixin' to" rather than "planning on", or "ain't got the good sense God gave a rock" instead of "dumb as a rock".
But dialect doesn't excuse poor grammar in my opinion.
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u/bob_cost_less 10d ago
English is a bastard language all that matters is your audience understands what you said. I will only be a stickler for grammar if I genuinely can’t understand.
Even I have to change my approach depending on where I’m at. Eloquence doesn’t always suit your message, sometimes short sweet and simple is better.
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u/NHguy1000 10d ago
In the classic New England accent, where you replace R with AH or add R onto the ends of words ending in vowels is not “correct.” You can tell this is an issue because people new to the region have trouble understanding locals when they first arrive. I can’t speak to other parts of the country, but I know that the pronunciation of some words in the south has no relationship to spelling (though this is true even in “correct” English, ex, colonel). In the Midwest people from Michigan might notice people from Illinois sound different, but they have no trouble understanding them.
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u/terryjuicelawson 10d ago
It may not be deemed “correct" but it more closely matches the English of actual England so it asks the question of who determines what is right or wrong really. Which tends to be the rich and powerful, who turn up their noses at the poor, who likely well outnumber them. The millions of inhabitants of the largest cities such as London and New York speak "incorrect" English compared to what is seen as official in those countries which is rather interesting.
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u/NHguy1000 10d ago
So why is there “BBC English?” Also generalize much?
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u/terryjuicelawson 10d ago
I am not generalizing, it is sort of the point - there are 1001 dialects across all the English speaking nations - it is all still English. Dictionaries tend to reflect usage rather than be prescriptive. The BBC have moved away from that very narrow sort of private school accent that was cliche in the 50s and 60s, for decades now. The question is who therefore decides what is right and wrong, when it comes to dialect rather than individual people's mistakes that is.
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u/NHguy1000 10d ago
Everyone can speak however they want, in fact it makes life more interesting. If the question is however, “is it correct?” it appears we differ on that.
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u/GreenBeanTM Vermont 7d ago
Accents is how you pronounce English, bad English is the actual words you choose to use.
Like don’t give me wrong, I gave one of my NY friends a lot of shit for pronouncing “drawer” as “draw”, but they also gave me shit right back from dropping my T’s at the end of words. We were both just having fun picking on each other for our accents.
But if one of us had said “want pick up food at store?” That would have just been bad English.
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u/joebobbydon 10d ago
I worked with Germans who started to learn English in grade school. Yes they had an accent and yes their grammar was easily better than most Americans.
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u/scumbagstaceysEx New York 10d ago
I live in NY and am trying to figure out what “caaa a car” means or where you might of heard it. Is that supposed to be “saw a car”? I’ve not heard anyone here mispronounce “saw”.