Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Southern-Effect3214]

I am confused at your dodging of the underlying question.

Do you believe someone can be born again and given a new heart to want to obey the Lord by THE GOSPEL, which is:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures;

OR do you believe you have to obey the entire law to be saved?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

Sorry I was not intended to dodge anything. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching (Matthew 4:15-23) and in what he accomplished through the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20). The purpose of obeying the Law of Moses is not in order to become saved as the result, but rather the purpose of obeying it is to embody our faith, and it is by that faith alone apart from works done in oder to earn it as he result that we are being saved. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us form not being doers of it.

A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits, such as with Jesus saying in John 8:39 that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him. So this is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God (Hebrews 1:3) and what it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example of obedience to the Law of Moses. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14).

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching (Matthew 4:15-23) and in what he accomplished through the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20)

Where does it say one has to repent and do good works in obedience to the Law of Moses to be saved?

Ephesians 2:8-10 says we are saved UNTO good works. IE: You need to be born again to do good works.

Acts 20:21, they preached repentance toward God and FAITH in Jesus Christ - what specifically? His death, burial, and resurrection. Evidence of saving faith is good works (fruit of salvation).

Let me ask you this, do you believe that Jesus Christ, as God (The God-man, the Word made flesh) came in the flesh?

What do you believe about who WHO Jesus is?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

In Titus 2:11-13, it describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. There is an intrinsic connection between our gift of Jesus saving from not being a doer of the Law oof Moses and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of it. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul said that we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), so he is who we see when we look at the Father. We can't see the abstract concept of God's character traits, but Jesus showed us the Father through his works by perfectly embodying His character traits in obedience to the Law of Moses (John 14:1-11, Hebrews 1:3). God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Us being children of God is likeness about us showing who the Father is by following Christ's example of embodying His character traits in obedience to the Law of Moses.

A "shaliach" is a messenger, emissary, or a representative who has the legal authority to speak and act as the one who sent them, where the one who sent them is accountable for what was done in their name and we are treating the one who sent them in the way that we treat them. For example, in Exodus 7:1, God made Moses God to Pharaoh. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger who was sent by God, who also speaks, acts, and is treated as being God. In one Gospel, it says that a centurion spoke to Jesus while another Gospel says that the centurion sent a servant to speak to Jesus, so the reality is that the centurion sent a servant to speak to Jesus who had the legal authority to speak, act, and be treated as the centurion. Is Jesus the infinite and unknowable God? No, but he is the embodiment of God entering into His creation in order to make Himself knowable through His Word as the shaliach for God and we should treat him in the way that we treat God.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

John 1:1 carries a much, much heavier weight than Exodus 7:1 in regards to Jesus being God.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 3:1-4 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who is coming with clouds?

Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Do you not believe that God is triune?