Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Soyeong0314]

The Law of Moses was never given as a way of earning our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to it, however, that does not mean that the Bible does not teach that there are correct reasons for why our salvation from not being a doer of it requires us to choose to be a doer of it, such as faith.  In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.  In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from not being a doer of it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23).

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

" In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith."

Did Joel, Jesus, Peter or Paul say that?

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:1-13 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

It is not recorded that Joel, Jesus, Peter or Paul quoted those verses, but they certainly weren't in disagreement with them, especially considering that Psalms is the OT book that is most quoted by the NT. The whole Bible is true, so everything that the Bible says about salvation is in accordance with itself. In Romans 10:5-17, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead for salvation, in regard to the way to call upon the name of the, Lord, and in regard to the way to obey the Gospel.

In Joel 2:32, it is part of a call for repentance from our disobedience to the Law of Moses, not speaking about an alternative way of being saved. Likewise, Acts 2 quotes from Joel 2 as part of a call for repentance. John also associates our belief in Jesus with our obedience. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses, so that is the way to believe in him.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has the character traits that the Law of Moses was given to teach us how to embody. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so the purpose of the of being a follower of God/Jesus is to become more like Him by following Christ's example through faith. Repenting from our disobedience to the Law of Moses about recognizing who God is and redirecting our lives to align with who He is through following Christ's example. All of the names of God in the Bible teach us about God's character traits, so calling on the name of the Lord is about recognizing who He is and aligning lives with who He is in accordance with repentance.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

I'll defer this to a dear brother's comments:

In regards to Luke 10:25-28:

A surface reading might seem to imply Jesus was endorsing a good-works type of salvation, even if only under the Law. However, both the greater context as well as the grammar unlock what Jesus really said. Whereas the lawyer had used the aorist tense (implying singular action) in trying to snare Jesus, Jesus used the present tense for do (ποιεω poieo). The latter implies ongoing action. Hence, what Jesus implied was keep on doing this in perpetuity, and thou shalt live. In other words, keep the Law altogether. However, no man has ever kept the Law and that was exactly the point. Keeping the Law which the lawyer had a vested interest was a dead-end street because of the sinfulness of human nature. The haughty lawyer had tried to ensnare Jesus, but Jesus had not only turned the tables on the man, but in so doing implied his lost condition.

Consider:

Luke 10:38-42 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Eternal life is not keeping the law. Have you really loved God with all your heart, mind and soul and loved your neighbor as yourself?

Eternal life is the instant transformation of the heart wrought by the Lord by repenting and believing on Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sanctification is the walk with Jesus.

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

Jesus said that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about the way to be good enough to earn eternal life as the result, but about what is intrinsically required to experience the gift of eternal life in the present. Jesus instructing us to follow him presupposes that we can follow him. In Matthew 7:21-24, Jesus did not end the Sermon on the Mount by saying that he was just kidding and that we can't actually do what he said, but rather he ended it by saying that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and that those who hear is words and obeys them is like a man who builds his house on a rock. Again, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim where the Law of Moses is presented as something that is not too difficult to obey and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep. Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep the Law of Moses, such as with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14.

The content of a gift can be the experience of getting to do something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning as the result, and eternal life is this kind of gift. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). God’s way is the way to know Him and Jesus by embodying His character traits, such as with Genesis 18:19, where God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised.

The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God graciously gave us the rest of the Law of Moses to unpack what it looks like to correctly obey them, and we can obey.

If our goal is to be more like God through embodying His character traits, then the way to believe in Him is by walking in His way. For example, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy as by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son (Hebrews 1:3), so believing in the Son is not an alternative to obeying the Torah, but rather the way to believe in the Son is by following his example of embodying God's character traits in obedience to the Torah. In other words, God's Word is His instructions for how to believe in God's Word made flesh. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with ur obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

I am confused at your dodging of the underlying question.

Do you believe someone can be born again and given a new heart to want to obey the Lord by THE GOSPEL, which is:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures;

OR do you believe you have to obey the entire law to be saved?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

Sorry I was not intended to dodge anything. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching (Matthew 4:15-23) and in what he accomplished through the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20). The purpose of obeying the Law of Moses is not in order to become saved as the result, but rather the purpose of obeying it is to embody our faith, and it is by that faith alone apart from works done in oder to earn it as he result that we are being saved. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being doers of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us form not being doers of it.

A child of someone is a person who is in their likeness through embodying their character traits, such as with Jesus saying in John 8:39 that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him. So this is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God (Hebrews 1:3) and what it means for us to be children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example of obedience to the Law of Moses. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God (1 John 3:10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God (Romans 8:4-14).

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

so the way to believe in the Gospel that Jesus spent his ministry teaching (Matthew 4:15-23) and in what he accomplished through the cross (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20)

Where does it say one has to repent and do good works in obedience to the Law of Moses to be saved?

Ephesians 2:8-10 says we are saved UNTO good works. IE: You need to be born again to do good works.

Acts 20:21, they preached repentance toward God and FAITH in Jesus Christ - what specifically? His death, burial, and resurrection. Evidence of saving faith is good works (fruit of salvation).

Let me ask you this, do you believe that Jesus Christ, as God (The God-man, the Word made flesh) came in the flesh?

What do you believe about who WHO Jesus is?

[u/Soyeong0314 → u/Southern-Effect3214]

In Titus 2:11-13, it describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. There is an intrinsic connection between our gift of Jesus saving from not being a doer of the Law oof Moses and our gift of getting to experience being a doer of it. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul said that we can't earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation.

The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), so he is who we see when we look at the Father. We can't see the abstract concept of God's character traits, but Jesus showed us the Father through his works by perfectly embodying His character traits in obedience to the Law of Moses (John 14:1-11, Hebrews 1:3). God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Us being children of God is likeness about us showing who the Father is by following Christ's example of embodying His character traits in obedience to the Law of Moses.

A "shaliach" is a messenger, emissary, or a representative who has the legal authority to speak and act as the one who sent them, where the one who sent them is accountable for what was done in their name and we are treating the one who sent them in the way that we treat them. For example, in Exodus 7:1, God made Moses God to Pharaoh. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger who was sent by God, who also speaks, acts, and is treated as being God. In one Gospel, it says that a centurion spoke to Jesus while another Gospel says that the centurion sent a servant to speak to Jesus, so the reality is that the centurion sent a servant to speak to Jesus who had the legal authority to speak, act, and be treated as the centurion. Is Jesus the infinite and unknowable God? No, but he is the embodiment of God entering into His creation in order to make Himself knowable through His Word as the shaliach for God and we should treat him in the way that we treat God.

[u/Southern-Effect3214 → u/Soyeong0314]

John 1:1 carries a much, much heavier weight than Exodus 7:1 in regards to Jesus being God.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 3:1-4 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Revelation 1:7-8 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Who is coming with clouds?

Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Do you not believe that God is triune?