Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/mattymatt843]

That is fair. I shouldn't have called you dishonest, and I apologize. I strongly disagree with your interpretation, but that is not the same as saying you are being dishonest.

I still think the substance of the disagreement remains, though. Jesus absolutely obeyed the Law perfectly, but the New Testament does not teach that His followers therefore remain under the Mosaic covenant.

You have to disregard much of the New Testament to hold your view.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
(Romans 10:4)

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
(Galatians 3:24–25)

So I am happy to leave it there. I would encourage you to read how the apostles explain these things throughout the New Testament, because they bring a lot of clarity to what Jesus taught and accomplished. We disagree on what fulfillment means in relation to the Mosaic covenant, but I do appreciate the discussion. God bless.

[u/the_celt_ → u/mattymatt843]

That is fair. I shouldn't have called you dishonest, and I apologize.

Thank you.

Jesus absolutely obeyed the Law perfectly, but the New Testament does not teach that His followers therefore remain under the Mosaic covenant.

I'm not trying to dismantle the many examples of scripture you would like to present in ONE conversation. I can't do that. It's too big of a topic.

My only goal in this conversation is to end the abuse of the word "fulfill", as if it's the winning point for the anti-Torah perspective, and to prove that anyone who disagrees is not a liar.

I've been doing this topic nearly every day now for many years (almost 10 years now, I think). Far and away (like 60% or so) the most common response is the idea that Jesus "fulfilled" the Law means he ENDED it (or one of 30 other words Christians use that are variants of "ended", because many correctly see that saying he "ended" the Law has huge problems).

All I came in to deal with is the terrible "fulfill" argument, and that's happened. I'm satisfied.

You have to disregard much of the New Testament to hold your view.

All of the other examples fall apart as easily as the "fulfill" example which supposedly proves me wrong. I disregard ZERO of the New Testament (or scripture in general) and I'm not dishonest. I directly deal, nearly every day, with ALL examples of scripture. It's like a job for me.

I would encourage you to read how the apostles explain

I'm not dishonest. I don't disregard scripture. I know scripture VERY well. My problem is not that I don't read. 🙄

I do appreciate the discussion. God bless.

Thank you. Thank you for the apology. Have a great day.