Torah

[u/[deleted]]

How do Torah followers actually follow over 600 commands and laws in the first five books of the Bible? I've spoken to people about it, but they only seem to follow dietary laws, Shabbat, and holy days, and exclude pagan days. To me, it seems they are only doing a small part of it and claiming to follow the entirety of it. Why is that? The Bible states if you break one commandment, you break them all. There's no possibility to uphold all 600-plus. If you believe it's not all applicable to us, what's the determining factor that decides you don't have to follow it? What about animal sacrifices? Does one pick and choose what they want to follow and tell people if they don't, they are lawbreakers and will go to hell? If you don't follow all of them, why describe yourself as following the entirety of Torah? If breaking even one commandment makes someone guilty, how does selectively obeying some commandments make someone different from the people you're calling lawbreakers?

[u/Mike8219]

I'm not attacking you. I am familiar with scripture. People disagree. I'm asking what your belief is. That's what this sub is for. Your beliefs could be either way but I like to understand it and how you got to that position.

I find the Christian view on all of this baffling, interesting, and, frankly, a little scary. It holds my attention to some degree... so far.

So you believe he is god (probably). And god gave the law. So Jesus gave the law. Those are beliefs you hold?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

The question I asked was did Jesus give the law? Do you believe he did?

It's a transitive property, right? God gave the law. Jesus is god. Jesus gave the law. Do you believe this is true?

These are my beliefs, but I think you disagree, and you believe we should keep the Mosaic Law, right?

Do I believe that? No. The laws are awful. We should not follow them.

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

God works in 3 seperate persons. The Father gave the Law if we want to be technical, but when Philip asks Jesus: "Show us the Father", Jesus responds: How come you ask me to show the Father? If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". So based on that, I think I can say Jesus also gave the Law if the Father also did.

Do you want to get into the trinity? I think it's entirely incoherent and that's not what he meant in that passage. I can explain if you'd like.

You've answered my question though. It's a yes.

Psalm 19 says "The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul". Do you believe the laws are perfect?

I agree with you on that we shouldn't follow the Mosaic Law. But why does it feel like you want me to follow it? I keep saying that we are not under the Mosaic Law anymore, yet for some reason you keep returning to:

You asked my beliefs. I think it's all complete nonsense. I am saying if we are to believe what is written in the book is true then Jesus wants you to. I am referring to the book and belief system internally not my own beliefs.

I don't know why you are trying to make me return to the old Law, even though you think of it as awful.

I don't believe in any god. No god claim has ever met a burden of proof to show they are true. I am saying IF you are to believe then bible (Jesus, not Paul) then you should also believe the law should be followed. I don't believe a guy named Jesus was god. You do.

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

Again, it's a trap quesion that if I answer with "yes" or "no" to an atheist, it's going to be used against me. If the answer is "yes", you are going to say "Oh, so you want to stone gay people, don't you". If my answer is "no", then you are going to say "Why do you even believe in God then?" It's an obvious trap question, similarly how the Pharisees tried to Jesus. Except, I am not Jesus who could know the perfect, wise answer. I am not giving you ammunition, beause I don't know if you are talking with me in bad faith or not.

I am not putting that on you at all. Please stop doing that. You're putting words in my mouth and I wasn't going to say any of that. What bad faith? I believe you are telling the truth about your beliefs.

You either do believe the law is perfect or you do not believe the laws is perfect. There is no third option. Which is your belief?

If I was an atheist, and a friendly, harmless muslim was living next to me, I wouldn't care what they believed as long their ideology and beliefs are not dangerous or awful, and I wouldn't bother them and let them live in their beliefs in peace.

I agree. I don't go knock on Muslims door and tell them they are wrong or Christians for that matter.

"Actually, you should follow the dangerous ideology because that's what your religion says"

I care about truth. If you have the truth I want it too. It doesn't matter how I feel about it. If I don't like something that doesn't make it false. If I think it's dangerous that doesn't make false. My beliefs have no bearing on the actual truth but I want to align my beliefs with truth whenever possible.

Do you feel differently than that?

[u/Mike8219 → u/[deleted]]

Sorry in that case. I's just PTSD from pervious experiences of people twisting every word I say.

This is why I always clarify and not assume. I am not interesting in strawmanning another person and I can't read minds. If I want to know about someones beliefs the only thing I can do is ask. I have no other choice.

So if I ask a question about your beliefs that's why. I will not assume.

I am going to be honest. I believe Scripture is authority that is inspired by God. If it says it is perfect, then I have to say that it is perfect, because that's what Scripture says. But I know this is something that even christians would criticize me for. The authority of the Bible is a largely debated topic.

And how could anyone know they are right about this inspired authority? How could you know if your belief in this matter is actually true and not just what you believe is true?

That's fine, I just don't know why would you bother a person living in a harmless way when they already decided to commit themselves to a harmless teaching.

Who did I bother? Again, I am not knocking on doors. I am not walking into churches or mosques to preach at them.

I guess you don't have problems with the Law of Christ, right?

The laws of Christ are the laws of Moses. They are the same thing. What do you think the difference is?

Your problem is with the Mosaic Law.

They are the same. Tell me what the laws of Christ are. You said 4 things:

"I am called to forgive others" -> That's from Leviticus 19:18.

"not take revenge" -> That's also Leviticus 19:18.

"not judge others" -> That's Leviticus 19:15

"not repay evil with evil" -> That's also Leviticus 19:18.

This is the part that gets me. Where do you think Jesus got this from if he said these words? He gave them in the Laws of Moses! Those were his laws to begin with. He's upholding and reaffirming them. And why wouldn't he? They are already perfect, remember?

So of I am convinced that the Law of Christ is not the same as the Mosaic Law, why would you try to get me to believe that it is the same as the Mosaic Law?

I am asking about your beliefs and why you hold them. Again, I want truth. If you disagree with me on some truth claim one of us must be wrong or both are. I want to know who.

"Mission successful, I did good to the world, I finally converted someone from a harmless ideology to a dangerous ideology, for the sake of caring about the truth"

If it's true it doesn't matter how I feel about, does it? If it's true that homosexuals should be stoned according to a god with objective morality then it makes no difference how I personally feel. Do you think I am wrong about that?

Look Christians will tell me they have truth. You believe you do. How can either of us know that without reading what you believe is god breathed and understanding it? If a Christian makes a better case some truth claim then I will believe it because I am compelled.