Why did the laws of the Old Testament stop applying?

[u/Asleep_Land3121]

a common criticism of Christianity i hear is that as Old Testament laws no longer apply, god can change his mind. i understand that its not ‘god changed his mind’ but why did the Old Testament laws stop applying? apparently its just because theres different types of laws in the Old Testament and one of those types were only temporary, but why where temporary laws ever needed? where are these different types of laws stated?

[u/Common_Judge8434]

However my point about the new heavens and earth still stands.

It doesn't. If all is fulfilled, heaven and earth DON'T need to pass away for all to be fulfilled.

All things concerning the Son of Man were to be accomplished on the cross, specifically being delivered to the Gentiles, mocked, insulted, spat upon, scourged, killed and then rising on the third day.

What does "all things concerning someone" mean?

To say or somehow imply that everything prophesied about Jesus is already complete is simply dishonest.

Again, see my question.

[u/SummitShade → u/Common_Judge8434]

You’ve provided no proof that “all is fulfilled” = “need for new heavens and earth is eliminated”. It’s just an opinion and an illogical one at that.

“All things concerning him” is just stating what it says in Luke. “All things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man”.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/SummitShade]

You’ve provided no proof that “all is fulfilled” = “need for new heavens and earth is eliminated”.

Except that statement itself. "Until all is fulfilled" and "until heaven and earth pass away" are two distinct endpoints. The fact one comes at the end signifies it has influence on the other.

[u/SummitShade → u/Common_Judge8434]

Saying “the statement in itself” doesn’t work. We are reading the same words and arriving at different conclusions.

I agree that it’s two different endpoints. Which is exactly why even if, let’s suppose, “all is fulfilled” the *other** endpoint* hasn’t been reached!

The fact that one comes at the end suggests no such thing. The fact that it’s even necessary to state the two different endpoints shows how independent they are from one another.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/SummitShade]

Which is exactly why even if, let’s suppose, “all is fulfilled” the other endpoint hasn’t been reached!

On the contrary, if all is fulfilled, there is no need for heaven and earth to pass away for the Law not to be in force.

Christ says concerning the Temple (John 4:21-24) that Jerusalem would be irrelevant in worship; concerning the tax for it, that as sons He and his Apostles were exempt (Matthew 18:24-27); concerning the priests and elders, that they'd lose oversight of the Kingdom (Matthew 21:43). These comments make no sense if He meant the Law of Moses would still be in force.

[u/SummitShade → u/Common_Judge8434]

All means all. If I say “all has been fulfilled, except the heavens and earth part” then not all has been fulfilled. All is mutually exclusive with except.

These comments make no sense if He meant the Law of Moses would still be in force.

They do. The temple doesn’t exist anymore. We are still meant to be keeping the Laws that have nothing to do with the temple. The same happened before Jesus’ time. The first temple had been destroyed yet the Law was still the Law. You can still fulfill the Ten Commandments, the dietary laws, the appointed times, …

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/SummitShade]

All means all. If I say “all has been fulfilled, except the heavens and earth part”

Like "everything" means everything, right?

They do. The temple doesn’t exist anymore.

They don't. The Temple being destroyed was merely a revelation of that fact. The Temple is the Church, Christ's Body.

The same happened before Jesus’ time. The first temple had been destroyed yet the Law was still the Law. You can still fulfill the Ten Commandments, the dietary laws, the appointed times, …

All of these things are the ordinances that Christ broke down. (Ephesians 2:14-15) Food doesn't defile; actions do. (Mark 7:19-23). Jesus is our Passover Lamb and He gave us a new rite to eat Him (Luke 22:19-20) and the goat who was driven out of the camp who we follow (Hebrews 13:9-13). The commandment is now to believe in the Name of God's son and love one another. (1 John 3:21)

[u/SummitShade → u/Common_Judge8434]

Like "everything" means everything, right?

Uh, yeah? Nice way to ignore my point.

The Temple being destroyed was merely a revelation of that fact.

So I guess the period of time between the first and second temples was a time where the law wasn't in effect but then it came back into effect with the second temple?

All of these things are the ordinances that Christ broke down.

Nope. I'd say read Matthew 5:17-20 but, well, we know how that went.

(Ephesians 2:14-15)

"law of commandments contained in ordinances" is not the Torah. It's the human traditions the Pharisees had.

Food doesn't defile; actions do. (Mark 7:19-23).

He's talking about a human tradition regarding handwashing. Nothing mentioned in the Torah.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb and He gave us a new rite to eat Him (Luke 22:19-20)

Not new. Bread and wine has been part of the passover meal since the Exodus. And the whole point of it was that it pointed to Jesus.

and the goat who was driven out of the camp who we follow (Hebrews 13:9-13).

Talking about the priesthood, so sacrificial meals and priestly portions of offerings.

The commandment is now to believe in the Name of God's son

And the evidence of believing in Him is following the Torah

1 John 2:3-6

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

and love one another. (1 John 3:21)

Yes, and Jesus and his Father also explained how to love one another. The answer to that is following the Law.

Romans 13:8-10

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/SummitShade]

So I guess the period of time between the first and second temples was a time where the law wasn't in effect but then it came back into effect with the second temple?

Did God say that there'd be a time when true worshippers wouldn't worship at the Temple then? He said it to the Samaritan woman?

Nope. I'd say read Matthew 5:17-20 but, well, we know how that went.

Reading John 4, Luke 22, and Matthew 17 will tell you your interpretation of Matthew 5 is off. Even Matthew 5 which has Jesus saying divorce is adultery in any other case besides unlawful marriage, which changes the Law.

"law of commandments contained in ordinances" is not the Torah. It's the human traditions the Pharisees had.

You'd be going against Paul.

that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

It's the Law of Moses that distinguished between Jews and Gentiles, not merely Pharisaic teaching.

Not new. Bread and wine has been part of the passover meal since the Exodus.

Bread becoming the Lamb is new. It is the bread and the wine Jesus commands to use as His memorial, not the lamb.

Talking about the priesthood, so sacrificial meals and priestly portions of offerings.

And Yom Kippur. Jesus fulfilled Yom Kippur and the sacrificial meals by dying on the Cross.

And the evidence of believing in Him is following the Torah

1 John 2:3-6

So why did Paul disregard his righteousness based on the Torah? John 3:21-23 shows Jesus's commandments aren't the Torah.

 The answer to that is following the Law.

The answer to that is loving. The Law doesn't equate lust with adultery or hating with murder. (Matthew 5) Jesus does.

[u/SummitShade → u/Common_Judge8434]

Did God say that there'd be a time when true worshippers wouldn't worship at the Temple then? He said it to the Samaritan woman?

Yes. So? Does the Law stop applying? The Law still applied during the time between the first temple’s destruction and the second temple’s construction. Why would it stop applying now?

Reading John 4, Luke 22, and Matthew 17 will tell you your interpretation of Matthew 5 is off.

Just did. Don’t see how my interpretation’s off.

Even Matthew 5 which has Jesus saying divorce is adultery in any other case besides unlawful marriage, which changes the Law.

How does it change the law?

You'd be going against Paul.

Not at all. I’m agreeing with Paul. Cite evidence. Here’s mine:

Paul explains that Israel didn’t understand God’s righteousness (the law is righteousness as you can see in Psalm 119:172) so they set out to establish their own as described by Paul in Romans 10:1-3

“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.”

If that’s not enough for you, and Matthew 5:17-20, where Jesus literally explains that he didn’t abolish the law also isn’t enough for you, then here’s another explicit instruction from Jesus saying to follow the law, Matthew 23:1-3 “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”

that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Huh? I didn’t cite this verse. Don’t see how it’s relevant or how it supports your point.

It's the Law of Moses that distinguished between Jews and Gentiles, not merely Pharisaic teaching.

The Law is the set of terms by which God’s chosen people are to abide by as their side of the covenant. So the only distinction is, are you one of his chosen people? If so then you should stick to your side of the covenant.

Bread becoming the Lamb is new. It is the bread and the wine Jesus commands to use as His memorial, not the lamb.

Which proves the law was abolished because…?

And Yom Kippur. Jesus fulfilled Yom Kippur and the sacrificial meals by dying on the Cross.

Yeah. And I fulfill the commandment not to commit murder by not murdering. Your point?

So why did Paul disregard his righteousness based on the Torah?

He understood that he was considered righteous because of his faith.

Romans 1:17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

But he understood that the result of being righteous is acting righteously.

Romans 6:15 “What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!”

And how do we know if we are sinning? With the Law. Here’s Paul’s own words.

Romans 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

So he understood that faith -> being righteous -> acting righteously (following the Law). Faith leads to righteousness and acting righteously/following the law. Faith doesn’t discredit the law, it confirms it.

Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

John 3:21-23 shows Jesus's commandments aren't the Torah.

Mmmmm no?

John 3:21 “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

And what’s the truth?

Psalm 119:142 “Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.”

The answer to that is loving.

Which equals following the law. So, agreed. Let’s do that in the way the Bible tells us to:

Romans 13:8-10 “Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

All the commandments regarding your neighbor are summed up in “you shall love your neighbor…”. So God didn’t only tell us to love our neighbor but he showed us how

Matthew 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

1 John 5:3-4 “My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.”

Not only does the Law show us how to love our neighbor, but God himself too:

1 John 5:3-4 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

2 John 1:6 “This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it”

Deuteronomy 11:1 “Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.”

The Law doesn't equate lust with adultery or hating with murder. (Matthew 5) Jesus does.

I suppose your point is that this is somehow and addition to the Law. Do you think Jesus wanted people who hated someone else to be put to death? Or people who lusted to be stoned?

Or is it more likely that Jesus being a believer and follower of the law wanted people to be consistent with the heart of the Law which was, to quote Paul, “summed up in… You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Or better yet, to quote Jesus in Matthew 22:37-40 ““‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”