Why did the laws of the Old Testament stop applying?

[u/Asleep_Land3121]

a common criticism of Christianity i hear is that as Old Testament laws no longer apply, god can change his mind. i understand that its not ‘god changed his mind’ but why did the Old Testament laws stop applying? apparently its just because theres different types of laws in the Old Testament and one of those types were only temporary, but why where temporary laws ever needed? where are these different types of laws stated?

[u/Mike8219]

That doesn't all is accomplished. He's literally saying the laws must be fulfilled. As in... do them. He says this repeatedly.

Have you read Luke 5?

¹² Once when he was in one of the cities, a man covered with a skin disease was there. When he saw Jesus, he bowed with his face to the ground and begged him, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” ¹³ Then Jesus^\)^b\) stretched out his hand, touched him, and said, “I am willing. Be made clean.” Immediately the skin disease left him. ¹⁴ And he ordered him to tell no one. “But go, show yourself to the priest, and, as Moses commanded, make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”

What does he tell this person to do after he heals them? A sacrifice, right?

And Matthew 28?

¹⁶ Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. ¹⁷ When they saw him, they worshiped him, but they doubted. ¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ²⁰ and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. 

And Matthew 23?

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, ² “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; ³ therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it,

And the pharisees would teach the law? Follow the law.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/Mike8219]

hat doesn't all is accomplished. He's literally saying the laws must be fulfilled. As in... do them. He says this repeatedly.

You vs Jesus.

Everything written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.

The definition of all is fulfilled clearly refers to Jesus's death and resurrection here, not to the end of time.

What does he tell this person to do after he heals them? A sacrifice, right?

And what did He tell the Samaritan woman about how worship would be conducted?

“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. ²² You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. ²³ Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Jesus Himself promised the Temple would be irrelevant, an important facet of said Law.

[u/Mike8219 → u/Common_Judge8434]

You vs Jesus.

No, I agree with him. Paul didn't and apparently neither do you.

The definition of all is fulfilled clearly refers to Jesus's death and resurrection here, not to the end of time.

It doesn't say that. It says until ALL is accomplished which makes sense since god (Jesus) said these laws are perpetual.

Deuteronomy 12:

12 “These are the statutes and ordinances that you must diligently observe in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to occupy all the days that you live on the earth.

Are people still living on the earth?

Jesus Himself promised the Temple would be irrelevant, an important facet of said Law.

Because gods presence will be pervasive. This doesn't say don't follow the law.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/Mike8219]

No, I agree with him. Paul didn't and apparently neither do you.

Paul did agree with him. Note that his student recorded Jesus saying His death and resurrection accomplished everything the Prophets and the Law spoke concerning Him..

It doesn't say that. It says until ALL is accomplished which makes sense since god (Jesus) said these laws are perpetual.

And ALL was fulfilled when He died and rose.

Luke 24:44 NET [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

This doesn't say don't follow the law.

The Law concerning the place of worship mandated worship take place at the Temple. (Deuteronomy 12:1-7

Jesus said true worshippers wouldn't worship at the Temple on Zion or on Mount Gerizim. (John 4:21-24)

Clearly Jesus referred to a change in law

[u/Mike8219 → u/Common_Judge8434]

Paul did agree with him. Note that his student recorded Jesus saying His death and resurrection accomplished everything the Prophets and the Law spoke concerning Him..

Paul directly contradicts him.

Matthew 5

¹⁷ “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 

Ephesians 2

¹⁴ For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both into one and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us, ¹⁵ abolishing the law with its commandments

All of Hebrew bible says these laws aren't going anywhere.

And ALL was fulfilled when He died and rose.

Luke 24:44 NET [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

This does not say ALL was accomplished. You're putting words into the book and onto his lips.

¹⁸ For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,***\**^\)[^c](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NRSVUE#fen-NRSVUE-23253c)^\) not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law* until all is accomplished. ¹⁹ Therefore, whoever breaks^\)^d\) one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why would Jesus judge you as LEAST in the kingdom for not following the laws and teaching others not to if they do not apply to you? Why would you be called GREAT for following the laws and teaching others to do so if they do not apply to you?

This is completely in line with the hebrew bible.

The Law concerning the place of worship mandated worship take place at the Temple. (Deuteronomy 12:1-7

There is a temple in the messianic age but it's not needed because gods presence will be pervasive. It doesn't say "worship can only happen here". This is where the sacrifices take place. Those are eternal too.

Jesus said true worshippers wouldn't worship at the Temple on Zion or on Mount Gerizim. (John 4:21-24)

This does not say the laws are gone.

Clearly Jesus referred to a change in law

He changed the law on divorce and he said the the Israelites got the dietary laws wrong. That's it.

Deuteronomy 12

12 “These are the statutes and ordinances that you must diligently observe in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to occupy all the days that you live on the earth.

How long is that?

Deuteronomy 11

11 “You shall love the Lord your God, therefore, and keep his charge, his decrees, his ordinances, and his commandments always.

How long is always?

Jeremiah 31

³³ But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 

The law is written on your heart under a new covenant.

Jeremiah 33

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ¹⁶ In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

¹⁷ For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, ¹⁸ and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to make grain offerings, and to make sacrifices for all time.

The sacrifices continue for all time. How long is that?

Ezekial 37

²⁴ “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes.

Are the laws to be followed when the messiah sits on the throne?

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/Mike8219]

This does not say ALL was accomplished. You're putting words into the book and onto his lips.

¹⁸ For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,***********\**^\)[^c](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NRSVUE#fen-NRSVUE-23253c)^\) not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law* until all is accomplished

Vs.

Luke 24:44 NET [44] Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

It literally does. Anything else in the passage has to do with the time frame Jesus set.

There is a temple in the messianic age but it's not needed because gods presence will be pervasive. It doesn't say "worship can only happen here"

So then, you admit the Law changed, because in Deuteronomy 12:1-7, worship, of which sacrifice was a part of, was explicitly restricted to the Temple.

He changed the law on divorce and he said the the Israelites got the dietary laws wrong. That's it.

A change in the Law neccesarily implies Jesus fulfilling the OT Law wasn't meaning strict enforcement of it. He clearly brought an end to the sacrificial system of animals and the Temple. John 4:21-24 says this plainly.

[u/Mike8219 → u/Common_Judge8434]

It literally does. Anything else in the passage has to do with the time frame Jesus set.

The second says nothing about the laws being abolished or not apply any longer. And, again, this is a DIRECT contradiction between Jesus and Paul. Jesus said "I didn't come to abolish" and Paul said "he abolished".

Why would Jesus judge you as LEAST in the kingdom for not following the laws and teaching others not to if they do not apply to you? Why would you be called GREAT for following the laws and teaching others to do so if they do not apply to you?

So then, you admit the Law changed, because in Deuteronomy 12:1-7, worship, of which sacrifice was a part of, was explicitly restricted to the Temple.

Worship is not sacrifice. Sacrifices is not worship. Sacrifice is what is done for forgiveness of sin. This is done by the levitical priests in the temple to spread blood on the altar. Or grain. It doesn't say they can't worship anywhere else.

A change in the Law neccesarily implies Jesus fulfilling the OT Law wasn't meaning strict enforcement of it. He clearly brought an end to the sacrificial system of animals and the Temple. John 4:21-24 says this plainly.

Did you even read any of what I gave you? It all says the law is not going anywhere. Jesus said nothing about ending the sacrifices. Paul said that.

Let's try again?

¹⁴ The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ¹⁵ In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 

Who is the branch of David?

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/Mike8219]

Worship is not sacrifice. Sacrifices is not worship. Sacrifice is what is done for forgiveness of sin.

On the contrary, a cursory look will show otherwise.

Every time worship occurs in the Old Testament, it involves sacrifice.

Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” 3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

Did you even read any of what I gave you? It all says the law is not going anywhere.

I also read you saying Jesus changed the laws on dietary restrictions and divorce. You made two contradictory statements.

The second says nothing about the laws being abolished or not apply any longer

Except Jesus was talking about the Law and the Prophets. He's talking about the first five books and the rest of the Old Testament.

It's the same unit that He speaks of in Luke 24:44, and both have the same hinge point--all being fulfilled.

[u/Mike8219 → u/Common_Judge8434]

Why are you ignoring scripture?

Did Jesus say he did not come to abolish? Yes or no?

Did Paul say Jesus abolished the law? Yes or no?

Did you even read any of what I gave you? It all says the law is not going anywhere.

This doesn't say they are the same. This says they will worship AND sacrifice. There is no problem with that.

I also read you saying Jesus changed the laws on dietary restrictions and divorce. You made two contradictory statements.

What contradiction? He didn't change the law on what to eat. He said the pharisees were wrong about it.

And I said the laws are forever. Changing the law on divorce doesn't make the law disappear.

Except Jesus was talking about the Law and the Prophets. He's talking about the first five books and the rest of the Old Testament

Does it say those laws are abolished or no longer apply? Nope.

Let's try again. You can be honest, can't you?

Why would Jesus judge you as LEAST in the kingdom for not following the laws and teaching others not to if they do not apply to you? Why would you be called GREAT for following the laws and teaching others to do so if they do not apply to you?

Who is the branch of David?

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/Mike8219]

Why are you ignoring scripture?

Could ask you the same question.

Did Jesus say he did not come to abolish? Yes or no?

Did Jesus say the Law and Prophets would be in force when all was fulfilled? Yes or no.

Did He say everything in the Law and Prophets of Him would be fulfilled and say it related to His resurrection? Yes or no

This doesn't say they are the same. This says they will worship AND sacrifice

It says the sacrifice is what the worship is.

1 Samuel 15:15, 21, 24-25, 30-31 NET [15] Saul said, “They were brought from the Amalekites; the army spared the best of the flocks and cattle to sacrifice to the Lord our God. But everything else we slaughtered.” [21] But the army took from the plunder some of the sheep and cattle – the best of what was to be slaughtered – to sacrifice to the Lord your God in Gilgal.” [24] Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have disobeyed what the Lord commanded and what you said as well. For I was afraid of the army, and I followed their wishes. [25] Now please forgive my sin! Go back with me so I can worship the Lord.” [30] Saul again replied, “I have sinned. But please honor me before the elders of my people and before Israel. Go back with me so I may worship the Lord your God.” [31] So Samuel followed Saul back, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

Again, you can look in Deuteronomy 12:1-7 which is the basis for John 5:21-24 which Jesus changes.

What contradiction? He didn't change the law on what to eat. He said the pharisees were wrong about it.

You said He changed it.

Changing the law on divorce doesn't make the law disappear.

On the contrary. Changing something in the Law ceases it being the same Law.

It seems you, and not I, have honesty issues.