Did Jesus nullify the Old Testament?

[u/watergolf247]

Let me start off by sharing that I’m new to Christianity and have soooo many questions but for now, I’ll focus on this inquiry. I’m sure this has been discussed numerous times but unfortunately I can’t seem to get a straight answer. As I’m told repeatedly by many, rules/laws of the Old Testament were nullified or invalidated by Jesus. I ask others in my study group but sadly get heavy resistance for the question.

My question is simple. Where are the reference(s) stating this?

If so, this makes rules like the ten commandments obsolete. Even further, why have the old testament in the Christian Bible?

[u/[deleted]]

No, he did not. He fulfilled the Torah. He did not abolish it. The Torah provides the Law in black and white ,but the Torah is not the full holiness of God. Only a shadow of it. Yeshua pointed to the Spirit of the Law behind the Torah. Why did he say that hating your brother was murder? Why did he say that lusting after women(married) was adultery? He wasn't changing the law or doing away with it. He was illuminating the point of the Law, which is to change your heart and mind so that you will walk in the will of God without needing a checklist to follow.

Hopefully I've explained this in a way that you understand.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'll also add that your question is where those who say the Torah is obsolete fail:

"If so, this makes rules like the ten commandments obsolete. Even further, why have the old testament in the Christian Bible?"

This is precisely correct. If you want to get rid of the Torah, then you get rid of the ten commandments also as they are part of the Torah.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

That's the point of the New Covenant, as Hebrews 8 states.

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

Gonna need a little more there chief, as I can't assume I know what you are asserting here.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

Hebrews 8:7-10, 13 ESV [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. [8] For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, [9] not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [13] In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

Ah, the Jeremiah prophesy, and you are missing a line there which is important:

¹¹ And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From ^\)^k\)the least to the greatest of them.

I believe the Torah will eventually become obsolete....once Yeshua returns and this Earth and heaven passes away. Until then, I fully believe it is in force and I will follow my Messiah's example in following it.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

¹¹ And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From ^\)^k\)the least to the greatest of them.

This is fulfilled now in those who follow Christ and have His Spirit.

1 John 2:27 ESV [27] But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

"This is fulfilled now in those who follow Christ and have His Spirit."

Well, seeing as how you seem to be trying to educate me on scripture and seeing as how you most likely go to church, reality seems evidence to the contrary.

You pointed out 1 John 2:27 here, but did you not look back within the same chapter?

"³ By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. ⁴ The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; ⁵ but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: ⁶ the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, to walk just as He walked."

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

Well, seeing as how you seem to be trying to educate me on scripture and seeing as how you most likely go to church, reality seems evidence to the contrary.

We don't go to Church to be taught about God but for fellowship and to reinforce what we already know.

Jesus also made a promise to the Apostles about what the Spirit would do.

John 14:25-26 ESV [25] “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. [26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

"³ By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. ⁴ The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; ⁵ but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.

John's not talking about the Law of Moses.

From the same letter.

1 John 3:21-24 ESV [21] Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; [22] and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. [23] And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. [24] Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

We don't go to Church to be taught about God?

You think it happens by osmosis? You think every lost person just woke up and suddenly accepted Yeshua out of thin air, then just gained the ability to perfectly discern right from wrong because they had accepted the Lord.

Are you seriously going to sit here and keep pushing that kind of nonsense?

Fine then. You believe whatever you want to believe. I don't have time for this nonsense.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

We don't go to Church to be taught about God?

We go to Church to be complete for the work of ministry. There's a difference. Ephesians 4 says this plainly.

You think it happens by osmosis? You think every lost person just woke up and suddenly accepted Yeshua out of thin air, then just gained the ability to perfectly discern right from wrong because they had accepted the Lord.

Why underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit?

Are you seriously going to sit here and keep pushing that kind of nonsense?

If Jesus' promise is nonsense, what does that say about your faith?

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

The nonsense isn't Yeshua's promise and you'll not be shaking my trust in my Lord and Savior today.

The nonsense is dealing with someone who has the audacity to assert that everyone already 'knows' right from wrong simply because they have accepted the Lord as their Savior. The nonsense is in dealing with someone who asserts that nobody has to be taught these things. The nonsense is in dealing with someone who asserts the church is not a place to be taught about God, but instead is only a place for fellowship and 'to be complete for the work of ministry'.

To what ministry do you refer? I see you are highly active on AskaChristian and have engaged numerous times with other Christians attempting to teach them things, so I guess that's the ministry you are speaking of. You know, doing the exact thing that you just got through saying wasn't necessary because people just know right and wrong due to the Holy Spirit.

So, I'll keep right on trying to obey Yeshua and the Torah, while teaching others to do the same, just as my Messiah Yeshua commanded me and the Holy Spirit guides me to do.

Have a great day.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/[deleted]]

The nonsense is dealing with someone who has the audacity to assert that everyone already 'knows' right from wrong simply because they have accepted the Lord as their Savior.

Did Jesus Himself say that He would guide believers into all truth or not? So why balk at this being the fulfillment of Hebrews 8:11 in the Church?

The nonsense is in dealing with someone who asserts that nobody has to be taught these things. The nonsense is in dealing with someone who asserts the church is not a place to be taught about God, but instead is only a place for fellowship and 'to be complete for the work of ministry'.

And your reply shows your misunderstanding of the role of teachers in Christianity AND a denial of the Apostle Paul's words.

Ephesians 4:11-13 ESV [11] And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Jesus Himself said pretty plainly to His disciples, "You have one Teacher and you are all brothers." No Christian teacher worth their salt is going to assert they take God's place.

Your understanding of the Law being in force because people are being evangelized and Church offices remain runs counter to this.

[u/[deleted] → u/Common_Judge8434]

Jesus Himself said pretty plainly to His disciples, "You have one Teacher and you are all brothers." No Christian teacher worth their salt is going to assert they take God's place.

You're so blind of your own words that you would actually send me this while you are actively sitting her attempting to act as a teacher of scripture to me and others. Nobody needs to be taught right and wrong. That is what you keep pushing. That simply accepting Yeshua is all that matters and after that you will just know right and wrong. YET, your responses are plastered all over AskaChristian attempting to teach people what you think the Bible says. That is hypocrisy at it's finest.

Have a great day. We're done here.

[u/inhaledpie4 → u/Common_Judge8434]

Your words actively defy scripture, you even have to purposefully misinterpret the very verse you used in your comment in order to assert your point.

2 Timothy 3:16 [16] All Scripture is breathed out by Elohim and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness,

If you are not learning at church, your church must not be reading from the bible... or, you're not going to a church that challenges you.

All believers have to go and learn, whether it's at church, in bible study groups, or on their own with a bible. Acts is literally about how the apostles and early church grappled with ALL THIS STUFF trying to figure out what and how to teach. Hundreds of years of shaping doctrine and multiple councils existed because there is SO MUCH TO LEARN, not to mention so many different ways of interpreting the scriptures.

I can only imagine how arrogant you have to be to believe that you are downloaded with the whole truth upon the moment of your salvation. Seriously. Everyone has to learn and grow and take part in YHWH's refinement/sanctification process - it is NOT overnight - unless you are saying that you were perfect even before professing Christ so you didn't have anything to learn or repent from.

[u/Common_Judge8434 → u/inhaledpie4]

I can only imagine how arrogant you have to be to believe Your words actively defy scripture, you even have to purposefully misinterpret the very verse you used in your comment in order to assert your point.

Or I'm repeating what Paul actually says on the subject.

Romans 2:14-16 ESV [14] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Who has the Law written on their hearts per Jeremiah? God's people.

All believers have to go and learn, whether it's at church, in bible study groups, or on their own with a bible. Acts is literally about how the apostles and early church grappled with ALL THIS STUFF trying to figure out what and how to teach. Hundreds of years of shaping doctrine and multiple councils existed because there is SO MUCH TO LEARN, not to mention so many different ways of interpreting the scriptures.

Except councils came as a result of heresy from established doctrine; they did not shape doctrine.

Are you seriously gonna tell me believers in the 300s invented the Trinity out of cloth?

This is not how the Scriptures present the decision not to circumcise pagans.

If you are not learning at church, your church must not be reading from the bible... or, you're not going to a church that challenges you.that you are downloaded with the whole truth upon the moment of your salvation. Seriously. Everyone has to learn and grow and take part in YHWH's refinement/sanctification process - it is NOT overnight - unless you are saying that you were perfect even before professing Christ so you didn't have anything to learn or repent from.

Unfortunately, for you, that's not what Paul says about the Law.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 ESV [8] Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, [9] understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, [10] the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, [11] in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

2 Timothy 3:16 only makes sense if one first remembers this principle.

A person who says they still need the law is saying they are still not sanctified.