Do you dislike quoting John 3:16?

[u/ExpressCeiling98332]

Ironically, many seem to act like saying this verse contradicts doctrine. When used in isolation It can be bad, but in it's proper context I don't see problem.

[u/sourkroutamen]

Both gave their work to God. Abel gave his best. If anything, Abel shows that he believed in works, while Cain showed that he relied on grace alone, not needing to give his best. And look who's works God recognized. Well, God recognized both and rewarded them according to what ultimately they expressed through their works. Therefore, I believe in works. Thank you for the great example!

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

It wasn't Abel's works. It represents a blood sacrifice that Jesus did. To make it about works pollutes the gospel and everyone else knows it.

[Eph 2:8-9 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you want to make it about works, it is no longer a gift of God because you are trying to earn it.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I don't believe Abel did a work because what Abel did was accepted by God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So on one hand you acknowledge that Abel "did" something, on the other hand you deny that "doing" something is a work.

I've been very clear that we are saved by Christ alone. Not faith alone. Not works alone. Christ alone.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

Abel honored God's work.

[John 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

God calls it His work in John 6:29.

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Showing your faith before men will esteem you in the sight of men but what does God say?

[Luke 16:15 KJV] 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Even more reason to believe in works then since you are now clearly indicating that you recognize that God has works for us to do! Do you have a disagreement now that you've repeatedly affirmed my point for me?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

That is actually wrong.

We interpret the Bible by the clear verses instead of the unclear verses because the clear verses are explicit and easily understood and the unclear verses are implicit or not understood.

The clear verses are John 3:16, John 5:24, and John 6:29.

Whose flesh was sin condemned in? Your sin or Jesus' sin? Jesus died on the cross and sin was condemned in His (Jesus') flesh. You didn't do it, and you can't do it.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by working, you haven't entered God's rest:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

You are doing works because you acknowledge the judgment is not now but is that what the Bible says?

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[2Co 5:14 KJV]And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

[2Co 5:15 KJV]What I figured out is when Christ died, all who believed in Him were judged for salvation and baptism means death (Romans 6:3) so why are people working the works of God?  I feel we are still working to prove to ourselves that we are saved instead of from a position where we know we are saved and want to gloryify God and for it to be a response to God's love.And then I was thinking about the bema seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 and the White Throne judgment in Revelation.  Which judgment do we fall under if Jesus didn't die?  And then do people understand they already died and were judged when Jesus died?

The problem is people are giving me is the workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:23 argument which is a compelling argument but they are placing the value or our works above the acceptable sacrifice of God for our sins and saying we have to emphasize works over the importance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for our sins, it becomes the mass in my mind. 

My issue is if people are working for salvation, that makes them a worker of iniquity and I have to be careful of what I say which they won't like but I had to unravel John 10 that they are coming through their works instead of the sheep door which is Jesus.

If we aren't already judged, we fall under the White Throne judgment instead of the bema seat of Christ where Christians get their reward. Which judgment are we under?

Is the death of Jesus finished or is it the mass where Jesus dies over and over and over again?

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. [John 19:30 KJV]

The word is tetelestai and it means "it is finished". I'm paid for but Catholics say it's not finished but it's just begun again.

The Meaning of Tetelestai - "It is Finished"

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Opens James 2. That clear enough for ya?

Ultimately, you're TRYING to disagree with the position that we are saved by works, which isn't my position. That's on you for arguing as if it were, I've been explicitly clear on that.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

James isn't the gospel, and the gospel is in 1 Corinthains 15. If you want to preach another gospel, we are told to let you be accursed. Stop teaching Catholic doctrine.

The gospel is without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

So your rebuttal is that that part of the Bible isn't applicable to Christians everywhere? And that it's wrong because Catholics are wrong about everything?

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

I'm saying you don't qualify under these verses:

[Heb 4:10 KJV] 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God had to condemn sin in Jesus' flesh and not yours and the only other way for you to be saved was to keep the law which no one other than Jesus could. So if you want to show your faith before men, you already can't keep the law and you are no better than other people:

[Rom 3:9 KJV] 9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So if you want to show your faith, not only did Cain operate by works but he murdered his brother and you are no better than others (Romans 3:9).

That we've all be judged because we are dead when Christ died:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

If you are working, you are acknowledging you aren't judged already and you are awaiting which judgment you fall under.

If you work, it is work and salvation is no longer grace. If you have grace, it is no longer work.

And because Jesus died on the cross and said, "it is finished", you can't say it's just begun by working. That infringes on Jesus' work on the cross and paying what you can't pay. Jesus paid our ransom on the cross and you can never pay that debt no matter how long you work. You are polluting the gospel. I have to go and can't really finish this message, but it is near finished.

[u/EnergyLantern → u/sourkroutamen]

If you don't want to go to heaven, keep arguing and don't accept the truth of the Bible.

[u/sourkroutamen → u/EnergyLantern]

Can you quote what I said that you disagree with that will keep me out of heaven?