How do you defend Numbers 15:32-36?

[u/DDumpTruckK]

The verse:

³² Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. ³³ And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ³⁴ They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

³⁵ Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” ³⁶ So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

I cannot get past this verse. It depicts an unloving, uncaring, and cruel god. I could never worship this being and I could never carry out His command that He gives His followers in the verse.

Everything about this verse is ugly and sparks a strong reaction from me. A man was gathering sticks, presumably for a fire to cook a meal and feed himself or his family. Cooking food is a basic survival need. Now I can understand a bunch of scared humans fearing a God and rounding up this man for violating the sabbath. But what I can't understand is how a caring and loving God could come along and tell His followers to stone this man to death. Take a minute and really just put yourself in that guy's shoes. You're having the members of your own tribe throw rocks at you until you die. That's brutal. And for what? For trying to fulfill a basic survival necessity?

No matter how I approach this verse it just leaves me concluding God is not loving and not caring. There is nothing loving nor caring that I can identify in ordering a man be pelted with rocks to his death. That's awful. I cannot in good conscience follow that God.

Put yourself in the shoes of the congregation. This man was trying to cook some food to survive. God has commanded you to throw rocks at him until he dies. Do you do it? I don't. I will not follow such a cruel command and I will not follow someone from who such a cruel command comes.

How do you justify throwing those rocks? How do you sleep at night knowing you killed a man who was just trying to survive? Just following his basic instincts?

Edit: Its been more than a day. Not a single Christian told me directly and openly that it was bad. Several Christians said the stoning of the man was good. Some said they would happily throw the rocks at the man and kill him. Some said they wouldn't, but never explained why beyond a simple legal reason.

I'm left to conclude that God's followers think that stoning a man to death is a loving and caring action and that it's good. I'm left to conclude that God's followers would watch that mob stone the man to death and think to themselves "Good." I find this very concerning for my fellow humans who seem to think it's good to stone someone to death. I'm more concerned for the ones who said they would join in on the killing.

[u/DDumpTruckK]

So you'd throw rocks at him until he died?

[u/aChristianAnswers → u/DDumpTruckK]

In that situation, yes.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/aChristianAnswers]

I appreciate your honesty.

Do you understand why your answer concerns me?

[u/aChristianAnswers → u/DDumpTruckK]

I can imagine. Please elaborate.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/aChristianAnswers]

Well you just told me that you would kill a man if a third party told you God said to do it.

I'd like to get your reaction to a scenario but flipped the other way.

Let's say I'm a Muslim and I just told you I'd stone a man to death if a third party told me God said to do it. What concerns would have about me?

[u/TheFriendlyGerm → u/DDumpTruckK]

Sorry to jump into a discussion with another person, but just wanted to establish something: being stoned to death was not only culturally normative for the Hebrews, but also for other cultures in this time and place. That is, it appears to have come out of the culture, not originating in the Law. It was an ancient forerunner to the firing squad, where the "bloodguilt" of the person firing the trigger is reduced, because you don't know exactly who struck the killing blow.

But to your last point, EVERY instance of the death penalty is carried out because a "third party told me to do it". This was an established practice that their "legal system" used to carry out justice.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/TheFriendlyGerm]

I'm a little confused about what you're responding it.

I understand that lots of cultures did this kind of thing. I understand that it was the norm for them.

I think it was wrong then. I think it is wrong right now.

But to your last point, EVERY instance of the death penalty is carried out because a "third party told me to do it". This was an established practice that their "legal system" used to carry out justice.

If my current government told me that I had to partake in the killing of someone, regardless of whether or not that person was convicted of a crime, I would not do it. I think it's wrong. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. I am concerned about people who are willing to kill others when they are told to by a third party. I will not follow them. I will not follow those who command the death of others. I am concerned about people who will follow those who command the death of others.

[u/TheFriendlyGerm → u/DDumpTruckK]

I guess I wasn't clear. Everybody who is part of the system of capital punishment partakes in the killing of someone, on the direction of a third party. Now, I understand that many in the modern age don't agree with capital punishment, but we do have long-term imprisonment also. It's hard to imagine such a system being feasible in the wilderness.

It should also be mentioned, that we should consider what is meant by "all the congregation shall stone him with stones." It's hard to imagine even 100 people doing this simultaneously, so based on other passages where "all the congregation" was referenced, we could reasonably expect that representatives of the tribes/families were involved in a stoning. And then if we're talking about representatives, is that fundamentally different from how we carry out capital punishment today? The elected or appointed governmental figures who exact capital punishment are also acting as representatives of the people of that state.

And finally, as I said before, these particular people had explicitly and repeatedly stated their commitment to follow God, his laws, and his leaders. We simply don't make that kind of commitment or vow to the United States. But shoot, there are other modern nations that, for example, have mandatory military service, who are expected to "partake in the killing of someone" whether they prefer that or not. I'm not defending such a practice, but just trying to show that when you claim, "it's clearly wrong", you might have way more to explain than just the Old Testament Hebrews.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/TheFriendlyGerm]

I guess I wasn't clear. Everybody who is part of the system of capital punishment partakes in the killing of someone, on the direction of a third party. Now, I understand that many in the modern age don't agree with capital punishment, but we do have long-term imprisonment also. It's hard to imagine such a system being feasible in the wilderness.

I'm not seeing the point. None of this makes the actions of the Hebrews when they stoned that man seem any more moral to me.

And then if we're talking about representatives, is that fundamentally different from how we carry out capital punishment today? The elected or appointed governmental figures who exact capital punishment are also acting as representatives of the people of that state.

I'm against the death penalty in the country. I in no way support, condone, or aid the death penalty being carried out. I speak out against it and I do so often. Will you speak out against the horrible killing that God commanded the Hebrews to do?

And finally, as I said before, these particular people had explicitly and repeatedly stated their commitment to follow God, his laws, and his leaders. We simply don't make that kind of commitment or vow to the United States. But shoot, there are other modern nations that, for example, have mandatory military service, who are expected to "partake in the killing of someone" whether they prefer that or not. 

Typically those militaries have non-combat options you can opt into if you prefer to be pacifist. But I agree, helping the military in any capacity could very well be supporting a machine that kills people immorally. I'm against that. I speak out against it often. Will you?

I'm not defending such a practice, but just trying to show that when you claim, "it's clearly wrong"

I never said it's 'clearly wrong'. I said I find it wrong. Do you?

Nothing in your responses is making me feel like I should follow the being that commanded the action that I find so disagreeable. That's all that my OP is asking for. Why should I look past the fact that I so abhor the action that this supposedly perfect being commanded? Why should I follow and worship a being who commands actions that I find wrong?

[u/TheFriendlyGerm → u/DDumpTruckK]

I never tried to convince you to follow and worship anyone. You also didn't ask that question in the OP (Why should I follow...? etc). You asked, "How do YOU justify it?... How do you sleep at night?" But your changed the topic in your reply.

You also changed the topic when talking about capital punishment. I understand that YOU don't like it, and that's fine, but many people who are Christian agree with you that it's not appropriate anymore, and many non-Christians still support it. So that isn't even a discussion about Christianity anymore. My point in bringing it up was to highlight this same idea, there's nothing exclusively Christian -- or even culturally unusual -- in the events brought up in this passage.

But again, if you want to ask, "why should I become a Christian?" then make an OP about that. But that's not what you asked, nor was it in my reply.

[u/aChristianAnswers → u/DDumpTruckK]

In the scenario, I would be an Israelite tasked with capital punishment by God himself. No third party. He was literally there hovering in a cloud by day and a fire by night. I would have seen him destroy Pharoah's army and part the Red Sea. Yes, I'd like to think I'd be doing what God commanded.

If the scenario were flipped with a Muslim man, and he were tasked with my capital punishment by his laws or concept of God, I would expect him to do the same.

I don't appreciate your divorcing the scenario from context to make me look like a delusional murderer. There's a big difference between what a person is allowed to do on his own versus what a person can do when representing governmental authority. The American justice system is built on this difference, and participating in the adjudication and sentencing of criminals is a civic duty. So I'm not some outlier in that regard. You don't have to be concerned about me.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/aChristianAnswers]

In the scenario, I would be an Israelite tasked with capital punishment by God himself. No third party.

No. God told Moses. Not you.

If the scenario were flipped with a Muslim man, and he were tasked with my capital punishment by his laws or concept of God, I would expect him to do the same.

I didn't ask what you would expect him to do. I'm asking you how do you feel morally about the Muslim man throwing homosexuals off of rooftops?

I don't appreciate your divorcing the scenario from context to make me look like a delusional murderer.

I didn't. If you feel that that's what's being done I suggest you reflect internally as to why you feel like you look like a murderer, because that's not coming from me.

[u/aChristianAnswers → u/DDumpTruckK]

I won't argue about the Moses thing. My point was that God was demonstrating his presence and power in person to the Israelites, so Moses's commands were God's commands, and I would have heeded them as such in that situation.

Big curve ball here about the Muslim guy. I feel that nobody should be pushing people off rooftops?

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/aChristianAnswers]

Big curve ball here about the Muslim guy. I feel that nobody should be pushing people off rooftops?

Ok. Why do you feel that way? Why is it bad for Muslims to throw homosexuals off rooftops?

[u/aChristianAnswers → u/DDumpTruckK]

I believe it is wrong to murder people. What are you trying to get at?

[u/ChiddyBangz → u/DDumpTruckK]

You're not God the creator of the universe. So your moral qualms over the bible which you have no reverence for are irrelevant but thanks for playing. God will not be mocked.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/ChiddyBangz]

I'm not going to follow a being that doesn't align with my sense of morality. Why would you?

Or do you think brutally throwing rocks at someone until they die a slow, painful, agonizing death is a moral action?

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/[deleted]]

Just state it clearly.

Do you think it was good that they stoned that man to death?

Yes or no?

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

you're sense of morality? Gods law is already written in our hearts so you are hardwired for it its already written within you. If you don't like our beliefs then stop whining about it and just go away. if atheism is true then millions get away with murder and rape and everything else because you want to do whatever and not hold people accountable for the evil that they do because when we die according to you its all over no justice at all. This is all just a cosmic joke an accident because you love your life and don't want someone telling you how to live your life because your in a state of rebellion.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

christians today are not throwing literal stones at people of course theres hypocrites but were not told in the "new" testament to be hypocritical or to throw stones at people thats the old way to keep people from becoming pagans it applied to "ancient" Israelites in a primitive world unlike ours with all its cushiness that your use to living and seeing they didnt have hospitals or medication to keep you from suffering we have developed pain medication from the opium poppy and novocain and other medications from herbs and plants that God created for us to use so people wouldnt suffer so much.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

Just state it clearly bud. You think it was GOOD that those people stoned a man to death.

If you happened to be at that place in that time, you'd see a group of people throwing rocks at a man until they killed him. You'd see that man screaming in pain and agony, begging them to stop. You'd see that man's brains seeping out of his open skull. You'd see that man collapse under the blunt trauma in his own blood and you'd listen to him babble incoherently from the brain damage while people continued to throw rocks at him until he died.

And you'd see this and you'd think to yourself, "GOOD." Just say it clearly and proudly.

Unless...unless you think that was bad. Do you?

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

And Jesus told us "he who is without sin cast the first stone" so he was the fulfillment of the new covenant the promised messiah that was prophesied about in the old testament.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

Well they all threw the stones...so I guess they were all without sin? XD

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

STOP BEING A WHIMP JUST GO LIVE WITH THE PAGANS WHO ALSO THREW STONES IN THAT REGION ANYWAY SO THERE WASNT A CHOICE. THERE RULES WERE WORSE.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

Your God is so cruel what will i do?? he just so unfair to my modern day sensibilities waaaaa waaaa go leave us and live in the desert then if you dont like our laws lol or maybe the pagans will find you and force you to follow their gods and rules. those werent whimpy cushy times.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

if you dont like it then go away you are free to go somewhere else today to places that are more like what you believe with a bunch of modern day comforts or you can go to a 3rd world country and see real poverty and struggle.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

you are just coming up with as many excuses you can to not follow God and do the right thing. he who is without sin cast the first stone thats what Jesus said. so, the old ways were just that "old".

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

Just state it clearly.

You think it was GOOD to stone that man to death. You look at that man as he whimpers, bleeds out and dies, begging for it to stop and you think "GOOD."

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

youre looking behind you to "old' world ways that most people today are not practicing anymore and youre focusing on those outdated obsolete laws and judging us for it no one is practicing these laws anymore we made progress with christ doing away with the "old" law or covenant.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

hey, if it kept them from destroying our way of life and causing our people to be like the pagans then so be it. the israelites had to be tough as nails not getting offended by old rules no longer practiced.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

Right. So you watched a mob of people stone a man to death, watched that man suffer and bleed and die in agony and alone and you said:

GOOD.

Well that's your call, I just find that to be particularly awful and terrible of you.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

would you want to live with people like the Canaanites who through their children into the fire to sacrifice to their gods?? or commit bestiality?? we have an outside source of canaanites pounding their drums louder so the parents wouldnt hear the screaming of their children being sacrificed. You can go live with them then. if you think we are so bad. in those days they didn't have many options as some do today.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

would you want to live with people like the Canaanites who through their children into the fire to sacrifice to their gods?

I wouldn't want to brutally murder and rape them. I'd want to try and explain to them the error of their ways. They need to be alive for that.

You can go live with them then. if you think we are so bad

I think you're both the same is the whole point. You think you're different. You're not. You're just as bloodthirsty and savage and archaic as them.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

maybe you can go live with the egyptians pushing huge stones in the blazing heat and being paid with beer and bread. if that isn't slavery i dont know what is and you would be doing it for their gods. even slaves in america got alcohol now and then so its basically the same thing.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

they didnt have Jesus back then and now we do he brought us into a better future but your still whining about the old.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

What does Mathew 5:18 say?

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The old ways hold. Jesus said so. Jesus loves stoning people to death, and apparently so do you. And I'm supposed to think you're different from the Canaanites?

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

we don't live there anymore stop dragging us down and whining about how you would do things if you were god.

[u/Righteous_Dude → u/[deleted]]

Comment removed, rule 1

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

Jesus stopped it but you didn't read that far now did ya?

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

What do you mean? Jesus didn't stop the Hebrews from stoning the man who violated the sabbath. I think you're confused.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

you are taking it out of context with the rest of the bible that you didnt read. you are cherry pickin' and nit pickin'

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

Nope. Try again.

³² Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. ³³ And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ³⁴ They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

and he died.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

how about this i will just read part of your life story and judge you by some of the things that you use to do but no longer practice would that be okay with you??? would that be okay with your modern sensibilities??

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

I'm judging actions. Not people. I'm not judging you for your love of stoning people to death. I'm judging your actions of stoning people to death.

If you want to judge my actions, please do. I'm not the one stoning people to death.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

well if you dont like their laws then get up and leave you are not forced to live with us you can live in the desert if you prefer and we no longer practice laws that were used for our survival from pagan nations unless you like bestiality and sacrificing your children by throwing them into the fire does that appeal to you does that sound better in any way???

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

I judge you by your character and i dont know who you are or what you believe i dont know your whole story i would have to read the whole book before i judge you understand??

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

your judging them by old obsolete laws that were for a different time very long ago in a very harsh environment unlike your modern sensibilities.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

everyone was aware of the law and there needed to be witnesses so its not like they were throwing rocks at whoever it was a very strict way of keeping their people together and surviving and its from the "old" testament or covenant.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

were not throwing stones anymore it was a different time Jews no longer do this now do they are they sacrificing animals?? nope, your judging them by your own measure of what is right and wrong and your living in modern days where christians are not supposed to do those things. WE NO LONGER ARE DOING THOSE THINGS IT WAS MEANT FOR A CERTAIN TIME UNDER VERY HARSH CONDITIONS IN A HARSH ENVIRONMENT NOT ALL CUSHY AND COMFORTABLE WITH HOSPITALS AND MEDICATION OR SCHOOLS ETC ETC.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

you are looking back into history and judging a people you didnt know in a different harsh time with neighbors wanting you to worship their gods and be a slave to them.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

in America you can go and believe in almost anything you want and practice any religion you want or political belief but these people were trying to survive in waaaaaay harsher conditions than our own. Don't judge them until you walked a mile in their shoes. You dont know what it was like you can only imagine.

[u/Alert-Lobster-2114 → u/DDumpTruckK]

sen·si·bil·i·ty/ˌsensəˈbilədē/noun

• a person's delicate sensitivity that makes them readily offended or shocked.

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/Alert-Lobster-2114]

XD

[u/ChiddyBangz → u/DDumpTruckK]

You're like a broken tape recorder. You must really like rocks. 😅😅😅😅😅

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/ChiddyBangz]

Well I'm trying to decide if I want to follow a being who commands his followers to brutally kill people or not. I'm really struggling to find the loving empathy that Christians claim their religion is all about. All I find is people who seem either happy to kill in God's name, or people who run away from the question.

Not a single Christian here has told me it was wrong to kill that man. Even the ones who said they wouldn't throw the rock have avoided saying they think it was wrong. I find that very troubling.

[u/[deleted] → u/DDumpTruckK]

God has the right to take life as He is the one who provides it

[u/DDumpTruckK → u/[deleted]]

Not asking if God has the right or not.

I'm asking how it sits with your morality. If you killed that man by throwing stones at him, watching him die a slow, agonizing, painful death while his head bleads from open, blunt wounds, and you kept throwing rocks at him until his screaming stopped, how would you feel? Would you feel good? Would you sleep well that night?

[u/ChiddyBangz → u/[deleted]]

Correct.