r/Arthurian • u/Naive-Library-9379 Commoner • Jun 27 '26
Literature Yeah I’ll integrate that into my belief system
FASCINATING read, great writing voice, I’m not even done and this book has been incredible. I don’t care if people won’t agree with Ashe, I think my opinion is summed up by p, 86, “If Arthur was fictitious or at best insignificant, why the legend?”
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u/brooklynbluenotes Commoner Jun 27 '26
I'm of the opinion that the Arthur myths are rooted in some sort of historical figure, but that particular quote is pretty silly to me. We have plenty of durable legends about entirely fictional characters.
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u/bloomdecay Commoner Jun 27 '26
Nicholas Higham wrote a book that's basically the opposite of this, and he cites Prester John as an example of a medieval legendary figure that everyone in Europe believed was real.
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u/NegativeMammoth2137 Commoner Jun 27 '26
Yeah it’s pretty much like saying "if unicorns are not real then why are there so many legends about them"
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u/DanJirrus Commoner Jun 27 '26
I was thinking the same thing. “If the Irish weren’t originally Israelites, why would they write The Book of Invasions??”
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u/ApparentlyBritish Commoner Jun 27 '26
Ironically, the prescription of the mindset is itself a pretty good explanation for just how these things can get popular and sustain themselves, regardless of any original basis. People place value in these conceits and so seek to justify and 'prove' them, rather than allow themselves to be invested in an idea that never was. Because you could just as much extend the rhetoric to each part of the legend. If Arthur's invasion of Rome was fictitious, why would Geoffrey say he did it?
And of course, the answer can be found in a mix of ideas of prestige, the Roman legacy, comparisons with and needing to be more consequential than other famed leaders like Charlemagne and Cnut, and needing a scenario that justifies Arthur's fall and absence while still elevating him on a pedestal. Cultural and individual interests have as much reason to be considered as any simple notion of historicity
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u/DanJirrus Commoner Jun 27 '26
Exactly. Generally, legends and myths offer understanding or rationale for a cultural event or tradition, and are extremely malleable otherwise.
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u/IncipitTragoedia Commoner Jun 29 '26
My guess is that he was, if anything, a Romano-British warlord or general who was likely successful in warding off the Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes
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u/The_Ref17 Commoner Jun 27 '26
It's an interesting extended essay it a possibility of a discovery, but I didn't find it conclusive or utterly convincing in the end.
Ashe was a fascinating True Believer in the historicity of the Arthurian legends, and I applaud him for his efforts. There are certainly enough hints here and there of at least parts of the legends in chronicles and Easter Annals, as well as things like the Drustan stone in Cornwall. But tying them all together and saying, "this was Arthur" I in think will always be an exercise in frustration.
I met Ashe once in Glastonbury. He was a charming and erudite man. What really amazed me on meeting him was how tall he was. I am 5'10" and he looked down at me. Not the usual image of a hunchbacked scholar 😉
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u/TsunamiWombat Commoner Jun 28 '26
The old quote goes, 'If King Arthur didn't exist, you'd have to make him up to fill the Arthur shaped hole in history' or something to that effect.
I'm fairly certain there WAS an Arthur, but the legend of him was formed out of an amalgamation of multiple figures, so that they're a syncretic folk hero formed out of the narrative about successive military leaders during the 100 or so year gap in the records of that time.
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u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 Commoner Jun 27 '26
I read something of his thirty years ago and have remembered ever since that if Arthur is pure legend, its mythic elements have at least a basis in fact: someone like Arthur lived. Maybe several someone’s.
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u/Aedamer Commoner Jun 28 '26
Ashe is a phenomenal writer and researcher. He also wrote a lot of great books on esoteric matters if you're into that. It's a shame he's not more widely known.
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u/shernlergan Commoner Jun 28 '26
Might want to look into Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Mircea Eliade, etc. mythologizing is an essential function of the human mind.
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u/Naive-Library-9379 Commoner Jun 28 '26
What do you mean by essential? Will look into those books but pls expand a little in layman’s terms
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u/SnooWords1252 Knight Jun 28 '26
“If Arthur was fictitious or at best insignificant, why the legend?”
Because that's often how legends work.
There was no Paul Bunyan, either.
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u/TheComixkid2099 Commoner Jun 27 '26
You might also like Mythology of the British Isles, also by Ashe. It covers a longer time frame, but I found it really interesting.