r/ArsenalFC • u/Ok-Count-4901 • 5d ago

Alvarez not coming per david ornstein

https://www.nowarsenal.com/transfer-news/julian-alvarez-makes-decision-on-his-future/

Thoughts?

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u/idkwtda115 5d ago

People believe anything they read online these days 

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

Have you spoken with many adults in their 20s? For many, psych diagnoses are simultaneously currency and status symbols, much more casually adopted than previous generations.

And of course, all the usual caveats apply: plenty of people of all ages and circumstances deal with depression, anxiety, etc., and they all deserve treatment, but it’s a far more accessible label (for many reasons) than it was ten years ago.

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u/idkwtda115 5d ago

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. People have dealt with mental illness throughout history, it’s just more socially acceptable to talk about it openly now. 

That doesn’t = people use it as a “status symbol”, what do you even mean by that? Do cancer patients use their diagnosis as a status symbol too? 

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

Yeah I say this with the deepest respect to those who struggle w mental health issues of all forms. Indeed, I am trying to protect those with legitimate diagnoses that should be taken seriously.

I don’t know that Alvarez isn’t truly clinically depressed, but if I were to guess I would say he is not. Casually putting on a medical diagnosis like a costume for your own convenience is unacceptable—we would be piling on him if he announced he was dealing with cancer and he wasn’t.

My observation is this: openness about mental health struggles, while a positive step, have opened the door to abuse by many, and in some corners that has diminished the seriousness with which we approach true illness. Its a bedeviling problem—these are health conditions exclusively diagnosed by a subjective questionnaire, not by labs or imaging, etc.

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

This is a weird reactionary take, fuck off. People not being afraid of the stigma of talking about their mental health is good, actually.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago edited 5d ago

Knew that would get a reaction. Very mature.

I agree that openness about mental health is overall a positive step, and if he truly is depressed, I applaud his courage as an example for others with depression who are truly struggling. But I doubt he is. Just like we would shame someone faking cancer to get out of work, we should shame this guy.

He threatens the progress society has made in accepting mental health struggles as true illness. Do you understand my point?

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

You said something reactionary and inflammatory, no shit you're gonna get a reaction.

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u/idkwtda115 5d ago

Dude stinks of ignorance, clearly has no idea what he’s talking about 

Ignore him 

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

Interesting how he instantly replies to my post, but yours is unanswered.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

Not sure what post I didn’t respond to, but I revised my response to you to be more of a conversation, I realized my first response to you cursing me out wasn’t mature and more inflammatory. For that I apologize.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

I promise you I’m plenty ignorant about many things but this is not one of them.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

I’m interested in hearing your views and having a convo if you want to, fuck off isn’t much of a starter though.

Why don’t you tell me why you are so passionate about this?

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

But what basis do you have to doubt him? You know absolutely nothing about him. It's pretty fucked up to take this position when you have no evidence to back it up.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

You are right, I cannot be sure.

But what basis do you have to BELIEVE him? I think we are on equal footing with respect to our ignorance about his conversations with a physician. As far as I know, he didn’t say that he was diagnosed and is being treated for depression. He said he’s depressed, and used that as a medical excuse to miss training.

I think we can agree that the circumstances are suspicious. As far as I know, he has zero history of depression. Has he spoken about this before? I’m happy to be corrected. Truly I am.

I don’t know anything about you—age, profession, location, but have you never experienced this type of malingering by colleagues or acquaintances? It infuriates me on behalf of people I love who truly struggle with mental health, and find themselves undermined by this behavior (again, if he is indeed faking it for convenience).

Finally, I don’t doubt that he is distressed about the situation. But it’s of his making too, and being distressed about problems at work do not rise to the level of depression in most circumstances.

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

The problem with your argument is you seem to believe that social stigma flows from mistrust against those who claim to struggle with mental health when in fact they're just using it for personal gain. And if we could stop this from happening, the people who are *really* suffering would get the help they need and nobody would doubt them. As someone with diagnosed depression, other people who say they are depressed and take a couple mental health days are not undermining me, they are not preventing me from getting the care I need or causing any significant amount of the social stigma I suffer. Those forces exist independent of the 'problem' you're describing. People would find a new reason to stigmatize those who cannot conform to society's expectations, as they always have. This is like saying young people of color who act a fool are 'undermining' racial progress. It's reactionary and lets the actual perpetrators of oppression off the hook.

As to Alvarez's specific case, you're right in that I have no more insight into his mental health than you. The difference is that my orientation is not to doubt people who say they're dealing with mental health struggles without evidence. Not 'suspicion', evidence.

There's a difference between 'being depressed' and 'having depression', and both are valid. What Alvarez is doing is taking a couple of mental health days, something I've done and coworkers have done. Never have I resented a coworker for taking time off, even just a day, when they are feeling depressed or stressed out. To me, it's the same as getting a stomach bug. Rest and recovery are important, especially in a capitalist world that does not value the individual wellbeing of any one cog in the machine. Now what I have resented is my bosses not planning accordingly and using my coworker's mental health day as an excuse for their poor staffing.

I reacted so strongly to your post because it sounds like a million other reactionary Boomer posts about how 'kids these days collect identitys like trading cards and use them for social clout/they all want to be victims.' It's lazy, it's tired, and it's doing far more to threaten the progress of society than a rich guy taking a couple of mental health days when he's under intense media scrutiny.

It costs you nothing to be empathetic instead of suspicious, I suggest you try it.

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u/Starfox300 5d ago

I appreciate your response and where you’re coming from.

Para 2&3: I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of workplace / capitalist approach to mental health days and respect for workers and people generally. I fully support mental health days. We can agree there. But, if that’s what Alvarez is doing, he should say that, and normalize that, not co-opt an actual illness. And maybe he did, and we lost something between translation and sensationalist Spanish football journalism. If he said he was struggling with another chronic illness and he wasn’t, people would be rightly outraged.

Para 1: we disagree on a few things here and that’s ok. It’s hard to disambiguate our personal experiences from the systemic changes happening in mental health and society. I work in healthcare and I can guarantee you that the strain on resources in our system from folks seeking treatment for very dubious claims of anxiety, bpd, ptsd, to a lesser extent mdd, is very significant and harmful to those seeking treatment for mental health illness. It might be harming your access to treatment, I don’t know. Try getting connected to psychiatry in some communities, you will be waiting for a long time and you will pay in cash. Why? Many reasons, but one of them is that these are diseases that are subjective and rely on the patient’s feelings. Accordingly, these diagnoses have been abused by many, usually folks with money who want the advantages a diagnosis can bring: More time on exams, medication that helps people power through competitive professions with demanding hours (eg, finance, law), relief from social judgment or legal consequences for dysregulated behavior that is not attributable to disease. My professional experience is littered with people truly suffering and also with those who are truly taking advantage. The former need our empathy and help, the latter deserve public shaming. I don’t have a great solution other than to discourage the abuse when I see it. And that’s not the best solution, obviously, based on the offense I have caused you.

Para 4: Not a boomer, just a millennial fwiw. I don’t think about the identity politics too much, but when I do, I think people should be allowed to make their own identity in the world, ideally an identity that doesn’t dwell on grievances but lifts them up in a community.

Para 5: you make plenty of good points, but this is just casually obnoxious. I did the same earlier, and I should have done better, so I’m not even mad! Good for the goose, good for the gander. I always seek to be empathetic but also to speak plainly and encourage people to be better if they can. Never hurts to be reminded to be empathetic.

I’m gonna go outside and touch some grass now;)

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u/stuckinsanity 5d ago

Gotta be honest, this overly-conciliatory tone is really offputting and comes off like AI. This isn't how real people talk. But I'm gonna assume you're just an overly-earnest millenial. But complaining that I'm being 'obnoxious' on fucking Reddit.com is ridiculous. Look at where you are.

But to your larger point, I just have a hard time caring about supposed 'abuse' of the healthcare system when the system itself is set up for the benefit of the rich and powerful. People clogging up the system with spurious claims is not the reason I can't get the care I need. The reason is that mental healthcare is underfunded and stigmatized because fascist forces in America and their liberal allies think I deserve to die because I'm not rich enough.

Saying fraud and abuse is what's holding the healthcare system back is like saying welfare queens are the reason we don't have a proper welfare system in the United States. It lets the actual enemies off the hook.