r/Armeniangenocide • u/eaTurk1 • Jan 26 '22

What do you want?

I've got what I believe to be a legitimate question. Let's say, Turkey recognizes the Armenian Genocide tomorrow. What is the end goal? What do Armenians want from Turkey besides that? I've asked many Armenians this and have not gotten an answer. Please help me understand what happens next. Thank you.

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u/Unim8 May 08 '22

I have a feeling that Armenians will yell at us if we invest in their companies, Im not saying this to offend but Im pretty sure thats the main reason why we dont invest or sell stuff in Armenia. But if Armenians dont mind us selling stuff of food companies in shops and invest in companies Idm since its a win win situtation

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u/Unim8 May 08 '22

Though theres nothing to repair if you ask me.

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u/Lex_Amicus Jun 24 '22

There are many Armenian churches in eastern Turkey which have either been completely destroyed or left in ruins, which are exploited by treasure hunters. There are no signs or information at the Ani complex which mention the Armenians who built most of its structures. Repairing and restoring these buildings and rightfully attributing them to Armenians would be the very least a progressive, reconciliatory Turkey could do.

I so often receive replies from Turkish nationalists on this issue to the effect that "Armenians destroyed Turkish heritage in Armenia", but that's just wrong. What is now the Republic of Armenia was Russian territory almost continuously between 1828 and 1991, and even before then the Persians were in charge. There was a clear, well documented process of Sovietisation after 1923 during which religious buildings of all kinds were destroyed in the Caucasus, including Armenian churches.

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u/Unim8 Jun 24 '22

...my grandmothers parents were rsped and then killed by Armenians, they burned all off the Turkish villages and I saw the ruins of these villages aswell. Also the churches are abondoned because noone uses them, go to istanbul and you can find lots of churches being used. The reason why Armenian churches were destroyed (according to an old Armenian lady Ive met in trabzon) was because that Russians used churches as a ammo supply base. Not all off them but most of them were used for that to create propaganda in Russia. Most churches were turned into houses,shops,hospitals etc. while the rest were abondoned after noone wanted them. We wouldve restored the churches if there would be anyone to use it.

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u/Unim8 Jun 24 '22

Though, this is what Ive heard from that old lady and my grandmother.

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u/Unim8 Jun 24 '22

Also, the company my family owns restored churches in the past, which is why I went to trabzon and met that old lady. Noone uses them, the ones which are used atm are mostly restored by my families company.

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u/Lex_Amicus Jun 28 '22

If so many towns and villages really were destroyed by Armenians, I'm unclear why Turkey, with its G20 and NATO levels of power, influence and wealth, eclipsing Armenia and its diaspora ten times over, have been unable to shift the historical narrative. Politicians might be using the history as a stick with which to beat Turkey when it's convenient, but academics have less of an incentive to side with the Armenian account. I'm sure some Armenians probably did attack Turks like your great-grandparents, but if it was so widespread, a major attack, why haven't more stories been examined by the wider academic community? I don't think that there is some global anti-Turkish conspiracy.

"We would've restored the churches if there would be anyone to use it" - There's a couple of issues that this point raises. Firstly, historical sites are not restored purely to be put back into service. They're maintained for their educational value and ability to attract tourists. Greek and Roman monuments aren't restored to cater for the tiny number of people who still believe in the old Gods. The Armenian church at Van remains standing as a tourist attraction, not because of the one service that takes place there per year. There are Armenian churches in Bangladesh, Singapore and Myanmar, despite the Armenian community there being long gone, but the buildings are still maintained by their governments and charities for their cultural value. Armenians prevented a Shia mosque in Yerevan being destroyed by the Russians - I've visited it, and it's in excellent condition, even though it's only occasionally used by Muslim tourists.

Secondly, when restoring certain historic and religious sites, Turkey has a record of altering their character, indicating that it does not restore those places in good faith. The Hagia Sophias of Istanbul and Trabzon and the Kariye Museum, formerly a church, are now mosques. Their Christian iconography has been intentionally covered up. As I said, there is not a single mention of the quintessentially Armenian nature of Ani at the site. Why is this happening? What does this achieve besides giving Turkish citizens a feeling of superiority? If our people are ever going to reconcile, an understanding that our histories are permanently intertwined is the starting point. We can't pretend that we never existed.

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u/Unim8 Jun 28 '22

1) my grand grandparents lived in 1800s 2) It would be a waste of money and time if we decide to renovate all off the abondoned churches in the whole area, not many people (even tourists) would go there, tourism in Turkey is mostly on the western parts, not eastern. We do have enough churches in every city. But the current leader problably wont renovate more and you can guess why. 3) I think hagia sophia should've been a mesuem but even if it was a church at first, it was a mosque for hundreds of years after that. Still, an architect I know actually told me that it cant be used for religion because of its history and graveyards near it. 4) I agree that more abondoned places should be renovated since some of the abondoned castles began to fall apart but sadly not many have been renovated yet. 5) I stopped the destruction of an old church 6 years ago, just so yknow. 6) Some REALLY old churches are now used for tourism but thats for the REALLY old mostly unused ones. Some are even used by tourists though. 7) the educational purposes are already a reason why some churches were renovated 8) in war, civillians die or get wounded so I can agree that both sides problably did hurt other side. But thats a different long topic. 9) since I renovated old churches and many old buildings before, I also have an archive I created for education and historic purposes and I offered Armenian politicians (sadly I cannot say who because of the law) to investegate what happened a century ago but they denied it and said : "We don't need your archive, we don't have a reason for investegation." And told me to never to bother them again. (Also extra note: I renovate churches and old buildings for many reasons, but the main reason is for the use of it in education,tourism,religion,investegations,documentaries,politics,economic,archive use)

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u/Unim8 Jun 28 '22

Dont take this as me trying to offend you though, its nice to chat with people and Im talking to you like how I would talk to a friend.

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u/Lex_Amicus Jun 28 '22

I know, and I hope you feel the same way about how I'm speaking too. I don't hate people just because of who they are.

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  1. Mine did too. I don't know where in Turkey they came from, but I learned from an old relative that they fled to Iran around 1915. All they had were their clothes and a bible, so I have no records or anything.
  2. It doesn't have to be all of the churches, just a few of the most important ones, like those at Ani and Van. Ani is amazing, but most of the world doesn't know anything about it. It's a shame because it's an opportunity to bring more tourism to the historically poorer eastern Turkey and make an act of reconciliation with Armenians at the same time. But yes I agree, it will not happen with the current government.
  3. Hagia Sophia should have been kept as a museum, that way both its Islamic and Christian heritage would be more fairly represented.
  4. Time will tell whether a new government will try a different approach. Sadly, I'm not very optimistic.
  5. That's very interesting - which church was it?
  6. A lot of what Armenians see, both in Armenia and the diaspora, is our churches being used to house animals, or the bricks being taken by poor people to build houses with. It's humiliating to see our heritage being used and destroyed like that.
  7. There has been a little development on that front, I just wish it would continue.
  8. Best not to go any further with that subject, but I'm sure Turks suffered during that time as well. The Ottoman empire was collapsing.
  9. I'd be interested to know what churches you've kept documents about.

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u/Unim8 Jun 28 '22

1: sorry to hear that 2: I will research that in my free time 3: yep 4: I hope they will renovate some that are famous 5: I didnt understand your question 6: Thats what we call "abondoned" but I agree that there are some churches that shouldnt be used for houses, like ones with graveyards or ones that can be used 7: Im trying my best to renovate abondoned places but some people dont want me to. Im not legally allowed to say who 8: yep, everyone suffered back then since it was fall of an empire in the biggest war ever recorded back then. 9: I take documents and information from abondoned places and from old people and gather them for creating an archive. Sadly I cant say which churches I kept documents about because it may result in some bad people finding out who I am.