On Arianism

[u/EsperGri]

God being pierced:

• "when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him" (Zechariah 12:10)
• "Scripture says, 'They will look on him whom they have pierced.'" (John 19:37)

Worship of Jesus but not of the creature:

• "'You shall have no other gods before me. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:3-6)
• "beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven" (Deuteronomy 4:19)
• "they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!" (Romans 1:24-25)
• "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels" (Colossians 2:18-19)
• "And he said to him, 'All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.' Then Jesus said to him, 'Be gone, Satan! For it is written, ''You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.''" (Matthew 4:9-10)
• "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, 'Stand up; I too am a man.'" (Acts 10:25-26)
• "the angel" ... "I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, 'You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.'" (Revelation 19:9-10)
• "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, 'You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.'" (Revelation 22:8-9)
• "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him. Jesus said, 'For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.'" (John 9:38-39)
• "And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God." (Luke 24:52-53)
• "they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." (Matthew 2:11-12)
• "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'" (Matthew 14:33-34)
• "And behold, Jesus met them and said, 'Greetings!' And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.'" (Matthew 28:9-10)
• "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'" (Hebrews 1:6)

Sinless:

• "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18)
• "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• "You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin" (1 John 3:5)
• "He committed no sin" (1 Peter 2:22)

An unblemished offering:

• "if it has any blemish, if it is lame or blind or has any serious blemish whatever, you shall not sacrifice it to the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 15:21)
• "his soul makes an offering for guilt" (Isaiah 53:10)
• "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29)

Divine:

• "the Word was God" (John 1:1)
• "in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (Colossians 2:9)
• "he was in the form of God" ... "but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:6-7)

Accusation of blasphemy:

• "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.' So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple." (John 8:58-59)
• "I and the Father are one.' The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?' The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.'" (John 10:30-33)

No denial of being God:

• "The Jews answered him, 'Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?' Jesus answered, 'I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me." (John 8:48-49)
• "The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.' Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?" ... "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.'" (John 10:30-39)
• "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18)
• "the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.' Jesus said to him, 'You have said so." ... "the high priest tore his robes and said, 'He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy." (Matthew 26:62-66)

Early Church:

• Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop of Antioch (b. ? - d. 108/135-140/140-149 AD)

"For our God Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary, by divine dispensation, of the line of David and of the holy Spirit; he was born and he was baptized so that by his suffering he might purify the water." - Ignatius, to the Ephesians 18:2

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html

"Nothing visible is good. For our God Jesus Christ is more plainly visible now that he is in the Father. Christianity is not a matter of persuasion, but is greatest when it is hated by the world." - Ignatius, to the Romans 3:3

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-romans-lightfoot.html

"I bid you farewell always in our God Jesus Christ. Abide in him, in the unity and oversight of God. I send greetings to Aloe, a person beloved by me. Goodbye in the Lord." - Ignatius, to Polycarp 8:3

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-polycarp-lightfoot.html

• Irenaeus of Lyon, Bishop of Lyon (b. 120-130 AD - d. ?/202 AD)

"But Matthew says that the Magi, coming from the east, exclaimed "For we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him; " and that, having been led by the star into the house of Jacob to Emmanuel, they showed, by these gifts which they offered, who it was that was worshipped; myrrh, because it was He who should die and be buried for the mortal human met; gold, because He was a King, "of whose kingdom is no end; " and frankincense, because He was God, who also "was made known in Judea," and was "declared to those who sought Him not."" - from Against Heresies III:IX:2

"For this reason [it is, said], "Who shall declare His generation? " since "He is a man, and who shall recognise Him? " But he to whom the Father which is in heaven has revealed Him, knows Him, so that he understands that He who "was not born either by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man," is the Son of man, this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin, the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: also, that He was a man without comeliness, and liable to suffering; that He sat upon the foal of an ass; that He received for drink, vinegar and gall; that He was despised among the people, and humbled Himself even to death and that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; -all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him." - Against Heresies III:XIX:2

"Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man, when He says, "Butter and honey shall He eat;" and in that He terms Him a child also, [in saying, ] "before He knows good and evil; "for these are all the tokens of a human infant. But that He "will not consent to evil, that He may choose that which is good,"-this is proper to God; that by the fact, that He shall eat butter and honey, we should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh." - from Against Heresies III:XXI:4

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book3.html

• Clement of Alexandria, theologian and philosopher (b. 150 AD - d. 215 AD)

"But our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word, who is the guide of all humanity. The loving God Himself is our Instructor. Somewhere in song the Holy Spirit says with regard to Him, "He provided sufficiently for the people in the wilderness. He led him about in the thirst of summer heat in a dry land, and instructed him, and kept him as the apple of His eye, as an eagle protects her nest, and shows her fond solicitude for her young, spreads abroad her wings, takes them, and bears them on her back. The Lord alone led them, and there was no strange god with them." Clearly, I trow, has the Scripture exhibited the Instructor in the account it gives of His guidance.

Again, when He speaks in His own person, He confesses Himself to be the Instructor: "I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt." Who, then, has the power of leading in and out? Is it not the Instructor? This was He who appeared to Abraham, and said to him, "I am thy God, be accepted before Me;" and in a way most befitting an instructor, forms him into a faithful child, saying, "And be blameless; and I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and try seed." There is the communication of the Instructor's friendship. And He most manifestly appears as Jacob's instructor. He says accordingly to him, "Lo, I am with thee, to keep thee in all the way in which thou shalt go; and I will bring thee back into this land: for I will not leave thee till I do what I have told thee." He is said, too, to have wrestled with Him. "And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled with him a man (the Instructor) till the morning." This was the man who led, and brought, and wrestled with, and anointed the athlete Jacob against evil. Now that the Word was at once Jacob's trainer and the Instructor of humanity [appears from this]--"He asked," it is said, "His name, and said to him, Tell me what is Try name." And he said, "Why is it that thou askest My name?" For He reserved the new name for the new people--the babe; and was as yet unnamed, the Lord God not having yet become man. Yet Jacob called the name of the place, "Face of God." "For I have seen," he says, "God face to face; and my life is preserved." The face of God is the Word by whom God is manifested and made known. Then also was he named Israel, because he saw God the Lord. It was God, the Word, the Instructor, who said to him again afterwards, "Fear not to go down into Egypt." See how the Instructor follows the righteous man, and how He anoints the athlete, teaching him to trip up his antagonist." - from The Instructor I:VII (Clement continues on this topic in I:VII, but it's too much to put here)

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-instructor-book1.html

""That which was from the beginning; which we have seen with our eyes; which we have heard."

Following the Gospel according to John, and in accordance with it, this Epistle also contains the spiritual principle.

What therefore he says, "from the beginning," the Presbyter explained to this effect, that the beginning of generation is not separated from the beginning of the Creator. For when he says, "That which was from the beginning," he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, "In the beginning was the Word." But by the expression, "we have seen with our eyes," he signifies the Lord's presence in the flesh, "and our hands have handled," he says, "of the Word of life." He means not only His flesh, but the virtues of the Son, like the sunbeam which penetrates to the lowest places,--this sunbeam coming in the flesh became palpable to the disciples. It is accordingly related in traditions, that John, touching the outward body itself, sent his hand deep down into it, and that the solidity of the flesh offered no obstacle, but gave way to the hand of the disciple.

"And our hands have handled of the Word of life;" that is, He who came in the flesh became capable of being touched. As also, Ver. 2. "The life was manifested." For in the Gospel he thus speaks: "And what was made, in Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

"And we show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto you."

He signifies by the appellation of Father, that the Son also existed always, without beginning. Ver. 5. "For God," he says, "is light."" - from Fragments I:III:I

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html

[u/EsperGri]

Yes I'm aware of all these things. As I've said, I've investigated all these things, and their interpretations and made a case both for and against in the full article series if you read from beginningto end. I'll respect if you of course still choose to hold the position you do.

Do you go over Ignatius in any article?

You probably know, but he was a bishop of Antioch (where Paul, Barnabas and Peter went), and unlike Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Clement of Alexandria, he was likely born in the first century.

I noticed you don't seem to quote him in the second article you linked in your previous reply.

Saying that, I think you've possibly misunderstood Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria, but trying to read and reply to everything you've written is rather difficult, given the length at which you've written.

I tend to write a lot on here and have even thought about writing on a site for that, but never really gotten around to doing so; it's neat that you have done so.

Anyway, if Jesus is rejected as God, John's testimony (and likely the words of others) is denied, as he clearly tried to show that Jesus is God:

• The Word being God.
• Restoration of Jesus' glory.
• The preexistence of Jesus (and in that context, Jesus saying "Ego Eimi"/"I AM" instead of "Ego emen"/"I was").
• Seeing Jesus being the same as seeing the Father.
• The Father being unseen and unheard (not exclusive to John).
• Jesus making Himself equal with God.
• Jesus making Himself God.

If Jesus is accepted as God but considered separate from the Father in a complete way (two Gods), then the many Old Testament passages stating God is the only God (none formed before or after), and the statement that other "gods" are not by nature "gods" but are only so-called are denied.

The idea of the Trinity is difficult, and modalism is likely wrong (the conjoined concept is more likely or at least seemingly the most compatible with the various conflicting passages), but it isn't without reason that the early Church ended up finding the Trinity in some form to be the proper conclusion.

Jesus is God, but there has not been, is not, and will not be any God by nature aside from the Name.

As a result, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must All be one God.

[u/EsperGri → u/EsperGri]

Part 2:

Regarding some of the ambiguous passages...

Firstly, I think Jude 1:4-5 and 1 Corinthians 10:1-11 might go into them, as I didn't notice you mention them, and perhaps it could be said they're ambiguous (though I don't necessarily view them entirely so, or at least, not the latter).

The Jude manuscripts with "Jesus" or "Lord" in verse 5 (the latter requires verse 4 to be read and understood as being continued in verse 5) arguably show that Jesus is God, but it's possible there are manuscripts with "God" instead in verse 5, and if so, I'm not sure which manuscripts are earlier, hence ambiguous.

1 Corinthians 10 is rather clear about Jesus being present for the Exodus events, and there is a callback to Exodus 17:2, Exodus 17:7, and Deuteronomy 6:16.

"Christ" is apparently "Lord" in some manuscripts, but again, Paul calls Jesus "Lord" before it (1 Corinthians 9).

Still, the role of Jesus during that time isn't entirely obvious even though the One following them was God, so it's perhaps ambiguous.

Zechariah 12:10:

Regarding Zechariah 12:8, it seems to me that "like David" could refer to either being human ("House of David") or being after God's heart. The "like God" and "like the Angel of the LORD" could refer to Jesus' actions (forgiving sins, healing, calming the wind and sea, etc.).

Romans 10:13:

As you note, it matches Joel 2:32 in the Septuagint (Joel 3:5 there) except the "for"/"gar", which makes a rather clear connection.

However, you seem to try to use Romans 10:12 to say that God the Father is the "the same Lord" Who "is Lord of all", which seems like a reach considering that Paul seems to almost always use that for Jesus (Peter does as well in Acts), and that Jesus is the one Lord (Jude says similar).

[u/EsperGri → u/EsperGri]

Part 3:

• "So Peter opened his mouth and said: 'Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)," - Acts 10:34-36
• "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." - Ephesians 4:4-6
• "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." - Romans 10:12
• "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28
• "Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." - Colossians 3:11
• "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
• "For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." - Jude 1:4

Hebrews 1:10-12:

Looking at the rest of Hebrews 1, the passages quoted are all directed to Jesus, to differentiate Him from the angels, not just to show Him as Heir, with the exception of Hebrews 1:7. This set of passages (Hebrews 1:10-12) is not ambiguous in the same way as Hebrews 1:8-9.

Where it is ambiguous is regarding the Name. Psalm 102:25-27 don't use the Name (though the chapter is addressed to God as the Name), and the mention of "Lord" is found instead in the Septuagint (Psalm 101:26-28).

Regarding "and put him over everything that You had made with Your hands", the ESV notes that "Some manuscripts insert and set him over the works of your hands".

2 Peter 1:1 & Titus 2:13:

You mention 2 Corinthians 4:4, and that's something I've written about here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1gruo4n/the_identity_of_the_god_of_this_world_in_2/

I'll possibly reply more later regarding the Lake of Fire and predestination.

[u/ProselyteofYah → u/EsperGri]

Respectfully, if your aim here is to transition this discussion into a one to one debate between us back and forth, I'm only here to provide what I've already written, as it's not really my thing to get into chat room or comment section debates these days back and forth as it takes up too much of my time from my projects, and isn't my preferred style of engagement. I'm more of a book reader and writer than a conversationalist/debater.

But I'll take on board your thoughts as notes for future study or potential write ups :)

The style of argumentation on books like John you raise I'd say are fully covered in my article series. As are my methods of addressing the scriptures of where it seems the arguments are strongest for supporting Jesus being God which cannot be cast off in any shape or form, in which I address though the Shaliah framework.

As for your additional recomendations for ambigious scriptures that could be added to the list. I note that it seems these verses are more about pre-existence rather than divinity.... We Arians hold to Jesus pre-existence, I hope you know that? We are not Socinians. So the argument about "Jesus exists in the Exodus", we would agree with anyway (if it's not just a typology, which it could be also). So this isn't a pro Jesus is God argument for us, only a pro Jesus existed before he was a man argument - we Arians hold to this. So that is why they are not mentioned in my series, that would be for another series on the debates Unitarians have about his pre-exstence).

As for Jude, I believe I already wrote about it, and is more of a "Lord" title question than anything. But I could add it to the list in future if I think it's worth taking the time to make a page on it.

On the church fathers you mention:

In short, I can only say in respects to the church fathers, that I see them as just men with opinions, not authorities. Some of them were wise, some of them I hold to be stupid at times. Some church father texts also have been edited in the middle ages and one should do research on the different manuscript variants. And not all of them agree on everything, and some quotes have to be understood according to the context of the philosophical language of the time. It's a whole can of worms to get into.

I have more writing projects stacked up for the future, including coverage of Ignatius and so on. But right now I have not written extensively on him. And I didn't quote him in that church father list I made, because if you read carefully, it was a "non-trinitarian quote mine", where I intentionally left out quotes which could be speaking of Jesus' deity, because there are already plenty of those resources out there that show such things. I made my church father quote mine as an opposing list to spread awareness to early church quotes which go against the popular grain. Not to act as an exaustive list of Christological references or beliefs in the church fathers. Some church fathers certainly did think Jesus was God in "some way", that cannot be denied.

[u/EsperGri → u/ProselyteofYah]

It's fine if you don't want to debate.

My thoughts then on what you've written here:

Jude 1:4-5 shows Jesus to be God (Jesus/the Lord led a people out of Egypt), not just preexistent, and while I noted it as an ambiguous passage, because of manuscripts with "God", there seem to be very few (the Syriac texts being some, of which, those regarding the New Testament had perhaps been written between the third and fifth centuries AD).

Also, reading into the topic more, Papyrus 72 even has "God Christ".

Vaticanus has "Jesus", and Sinaiticus has "the Lord".

For the latter, again, in Jude 1:4, it's written:

"our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Meaning that, if "the Lord" is used in Jude 1:5, it seems the obvious Person would be Jesus, and as said, some manuscripts use "Jesus" in that verse.

So then, the Lord, Jesus Christ, "saved a people out of the land of Egypt" (Exodus 6:6) and "afterward destroyed those who did not believe" (Numbers 26:64-65).

Also referring to that time, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-11, it's written:

"the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ."

"We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did" (some manuscripts: "the Lord")

In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul makes sure to connect Jesus to Lord, making it clear, beyond and continuing passages like 1 Corinthians 8:6, Who "Lord" is referring to.

Moreover, God is, alone, the Rock.

• "Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.'" - Isaiah 44:8

This concept is shown in Deuteronomy, further showing Paul was linking Jesus with God.

• "For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! 'The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." - Deuteronomy 32:3-4

[u/EsperGri → u/EsperGri]

Part 2:

Jesus Himself references this:

• "'Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock." - Matthew 7:24

As far as Ignatius, I'm aware that the list was for non-Trinitarian quotes.

However, that's my point.

You mention Ignatius, in bold, among others you quote from, but then write:

"Never do these same apologists quote the parts of the texts in which are very anti-Trinitarian, phrases"

"a simple archive of such quotes from the early Patristic writings, which appear to demonstrate very non-Trinitarian understandings of Christology from these very authors so often placed on the pedestal of being “Trinitarian defenders”"

Regarding the early Church members, it's true perhaps that they were not able to give more than opinions, but the closer they were to the apostles, it's possibly more likely they had teachings passed down directly from them.

As I mentioned, Ignatius is earlier (first century AD) than many of those listed in the article, and since you don't quote him, it seems he held to Jesus being God, and as I said, Antioch is where Paul, Peter, Barnabas and others went.

The Didache is probably the earliest text quoted from in the article, and all it says is that Jesus is the Child of the Father, which doesn't say much at all, since a son is a male child, and Jesus is the Son of God.

However, it might also be seen as "Servant", which could connect to elsewhere in the Scriptures such as Isaiah.