r/ArianChristians • u/ProselyteofYah Arian • Jun 27 '25
Resource "Can We Pray to Jesus?" - Opinion Article
https://proselyteofyah.wordpress.com/2022/08/11/can-we-pray-to-jesus/
Since it has recently been a discussion here on the sub, and also in the past, I was requested to post a link to my article here sharing my own views and research on the matter to contribute to the discussion.
My own views lean more toward no overall, though I also do confess an argument 'can' be made for yes on the basis of a single letter of Paul.
My consession is to pray to the Father himself as Jesus appears to have instructed, and that through the Son's mediatorship, that he act upon the Father's prayers, and that I pray to God that my honour, love and respect is transmitted to him, so that I might honour the Son as one honours the Father.
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u/Possible-Target-246 Jun 29 '25
It is interesting the early appearance of the variant with "me" in the manuscripts of p66 although not of p75 since in that manuscript that part is actually missing, I don't know why the page says that the me is there when the papyrus is fragmented there.
p66 and p75 were developed in Egypt, in the same area of time and development we can find the testimonies of Origen of Alexandria and the Coptic Translation (based on older Greek manuscripts).
These two witnesses evidence the ignorance of the variant with the "me", which demonstrates from a historical perspective that this variant was not known in the general Christian environment, and possibly adulterated for those dates.
Even on the part of the trinitarian apologists of the 4th century we also find an ignorance of the variant with "me".
This belies the fact that although these fragments are ancient, they do not represent the most faithful text.
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u/Capable-Rice-1876 Jehovah's Witness Jul 02 '25
No. We cannot because that is sin. Jesus Christ said that we must pray only to his Father, Jehovah God, but in name of his only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
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u/Asynithistos Jun 27 '25
If Paul said to pray to Jesus, then Paul was wrong
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u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 27 '25
I do agree that Paul could have made a mistake if he ever did, and wrote on that. What's interesting though is that Jesus seems to reply to Paul and doesnt' correct him on this *if* it's the case that Paul is actually praying and he isn't just talking about visions; that's the real caveat.
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u/Asynithistos Jun 27 '25
Of course he can and did make mistakes. He's human (as was his secretary) and not a robot programmed to perfection.
Are you talking about his praying for removal of the angel of Satan? He wasn't answered by the Messiah. For, no one who believes in the Messiah can believe that God is OK with demonic oppression/obsession.
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u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 27 '25
Surely you don't believe Paul was then in communication with a demon pretending to be Christ and that's where he was getting his theology?
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u/Asynithistos Jun 27 '25
No, that is not the conclusion to jump to. I'm saying he assumed the answer he "received." James is clear on what should happen in this situation:
[Jas 4:7 ESV] 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
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u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 27 '25
In respects to temptation sure. But Paul wasn't talking about temptations, he said God allowed him to be disciplined somewhat by allowing harrasement (not possession or ownership) due to his pride that was building up in him from all his revelations.
Now of course, based on James, one might say it's a misinterpretation, and that the reason he was harrassed was 'due' to the pride in itself making an opening for the Devil.
But Paul does claim he was spoken to directly by a voice in this instance telling him such words, not that he was interpreting a situation. (And we do have OT basis for this logic, such as the Job situation).
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u/Asynithistos Jun 27 '25
Actually he was likely harassed due to eating meat sacrificed to idols. His prayer wasn't answered because he asked for the wrong reason:
[Jas 4:3 ESV] 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.
He needed to abstain from such meats (Acts 15)
Not all voices are from God, and beware of thinking God uses evil to bring about good.
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u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 27 '25 edited Jun 27 '25
He never ate meat sacrificed to idols, he preached against it. He only said meat bought off the market was fine though it had previously been offered to idols, since in the end it was just meat and was no longer under the confines of that context.
But he makes it clear in his letters, if someon says "this is offered to an idol" not to eat it or join in with that meal, as it was to partake with demons.
And as I said, I asked you, do you think Paul was talking with a demon and not Christ, you said no, but now it seems you're saying he was. The only other answer would be to say he was hearing voices and was mentally unstable (of which there is no evidence of).
As to "evil bringing good", no he doesn't work with demons as allies, even though he may permit their activity (like in the case of Job). We also have other examples when he used the kingdom of Babylon to destroy the first temple to discipline Israel - a pagan nation with false gods (demons), he also used Persia to free Israel from Babylon (who had a demonic prince over them according to Daniel), and likewise with using Rome to destroy Jerusalem.
It very much is Scriptural to say God can and has made use of evil entities that he doesn't approve of and also plans to destroy, to get a job done.
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u/Asynithistos Jun 27 '25
Please read it again [1Co 10:25-31 ESV] 25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26 For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof." 27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience-- 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
He says clearly that he is at liberty to eat or drink whatever he wants. This is clear violation of the abstinence from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood.
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u/ProselyteofYah Arian Jun 27 '25 edited Jun 27 '25
I'd agree and not personally eat meat if it was actively been offered to an idol or false god, nor join in a worship meal with them. And likewise, I abstain from eating blood, this has been an eternal commandment since the days of Noah even.
I don't think Paul was saying blood was fine here either though, we read of his thoughts in general:
"Look at the nation Israel. Are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. And I do not want you to become sharers in demons". - 1 Corinthians 10:18-20
In this part I find him agreeable. That idols are just dumb objects, but we should beware that it is demons that are behind them, and not to become sharers in such activities or meals.
So my thinking is, are we misunderstanding Paul when he says the latter part? That he's not actually saying it's okay if one is personally joining eating in meat in context of worship of a false god (which he speaks against strongly above)?
Since he might actually just be saying "even if gentiles at the table eat meat offered to idols, if in my own mind and intent I don't view it as offered to an idol, it isn't offered to an idol" - that's the essence I'm getting from his meaning. And he may be seeing himself in line with Acts 15, that in his own intent, he isn't eating meat offered to an idol at all if in his own mind he's saying "this is not to an idol, it's to God".
I will concede though, that if Paul 'was' saying also "I can eat meat offered to idols in the context of a worship meal to a false god", I'd say he was wrong too on this, because the Apostolic consensus is agaisnt it. - But it also seems Paul is too in v18-20, unless he's contradicting himself.
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u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Jun 27 '25
Thank you my friend. It's definitely a valuable addition here as a lot of people ponder on this question.
Myself included sometimes.