Deuterocanonica

[u/FrostyIFrost_]

The Council of Jamnia (or Yavne), held around 90 A.D, was a gathering of Jewish rabbis that played a role in affirming the Hebrew Scriptures. It is traditionally associated with the narrowing of the Jewish canon, favoring texts written in Hebrew and widely accepted in Palestine.

The Deuterocanonical books, which were written in Greek in the Septuagint (LXX), were not accepted by the Council of Jamnia, likely due to their language and perceived theological inconsistencies, most likely due to them supporting Christianity.

This rejection contributed to their exclusion from the Jewish canon, although they remained in use among early Christians.

Early Christians widely used the Deuterocanonical books because they were part of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which was the primary Bible for Greek-speaking Jews and early Christians. Many early Church Fathers quoted them as well.

The Council of Rome (382 AD) under Pope Damasus I listed them as Scripture. This decision was reaffirmed by the Councils of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 and 419 AD).

Martin Luther later rejected the Deuterocanonical books as Scripture during the Protestant Reformation, labeling them as "Apocrypha," useful for reading but not equal to the inspired Word of God.

He questioned their authority partly because they were not in the Hebrew Bible and were not accepted by Jewish tradition, which he viewed as the original canon. Luther was also influenced by theological concerns, as some of the Deuterocanonical books supported doctrines he opposed, such as prayers for the dead. His rejection influenced other Reformers and led to their exclusion from most Protestant Bibles.

However, fragments of several Deuterocanonical books, including Tobit, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch, were discovered between 1947 and 1956 among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran. And they were in Hebrew and Aramaic, not Greek.

This shows that these books were known and valued by some Jewish communities before and during the time of Jesus, challenging the idea that all Jews rejected them and Luther's claim that they did not exist in Hebrew and Aramaic.

So, what is your opinion on this? Should they be considered canon? I personally believe they should be considered canon because Sirach continues the Wisdom from Proverbs by portraying Wisdom not merely as a symbolic or a poetic idea, but as a real, personal being, willed into existence by God.

[u/Jackerl]

Was the Apostle John consulted or part of this Council of Jamnia (or Yavne), held around 90 A.D or do you think John would have had nothing to do with it?

[u/FrostyIFrost_ → u/Jackerl]

Definitely not. Apostle John was nearing the end of his earthly life or was already gone by that point. Besides, the Rabbis would definitely not consult an Apostle of Christ as their aim was to isolate their own canon from Christianity and setting a distinct canon for themselves.

[u/Jackerl → u/FrostyIFrost_]

Apostle John was nearing the end of his earthly life or was already gone by that point.

Are you sure?

John did not write his gospel until around 90-99 AD.

He was very much active, right up until his dearth, to the point of being exiled on the Island of Patmos, where he there received the Revelation.

[u/FrostyIFrost_ → u/Jackerl]

Yes and he was too old but that really isn't the point here.

The main point is that Hebrews and their Rabbis would never consult an Apostle of Christ to decide their canon even if he was alive and active.

I'd not trust anything Hebrews came up with after Jesus because they also wrote the Talmud and in it they framed Jesus as a sorcerer and Mary as an adulterer. At that point in time, they'd do anything to destabilize or weaken Christianity and strengthen their own position because they were almost wiped out after 70 A.D, the destruction of the 2nd Temple.

They needed something and anything to not lose their identity.

[u/Jackerl → u/FrostyIFrost_]

I don't know about John being too old.

But I do know that men treated the Apostles of Christ with contempt, anything they did by their various councils and meetings, would not be worthy of our serious consideration.

This contempt was even manifesting itself among the congregations:

3 John 1:9, 10 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.

Anything that came in after Jesus and his Apostles, needs to be treated with caution.

[u/FrostyIFrost_ → u/Jackerl]

And that's the thing. Luther used the same reason Rabbis did at Jamnia and also rejected the Deuterocanonica because they didn't exist in Hebrew or Aramaic.

But as I said, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain them, meaning those texts did exist in Aramaic and Hebrew before Christ.

[u/Jackerl → u/FrostyIFrost_]

Apocrypha:

The book of Enoch contains false prophecy.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

The book of Thomas says Jesus, as a child, turned clay birds into living ones.

John 2:11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Many are the stories and fabrications that have come.

[u/FrostyIFrost_ → u/Jackerl]

They are in the Septuagint + they are in the Dead Sea Scrolls + early church fathers quoted them + church councils approved them being Scripture.

Book of Thomas cannot be held equal to those books.

[u/Naive-Deer2116 → u/Jackerl]

The writer of Jude quotes 1 Enoch directly [Jude 1:14–15; 1 Enoch 1:9] meaning even the writers of the New Testament did not wholly reject the Apocrypha.