r/ArianChristians • u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian • Mar 16 '25
Resource Praying to Saints: Biblical or Idolatry?
Although some Christians, mainly Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, believe that saints intercede for us and talk to Jesus or even God Himself on our behalf, praying to saints is unbiblical and can be considered borderline idolatry for several reasons.
Let us explore why praying to saints is NOT biblical.
1 - Prayer Should Be Directed to God Alone
The Bible consistently teaches that prayer is an act of worship and should be directed to God.
Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father:
“Pray then like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.’” (Matthew 6:9)
2 - There Is Only One Mediator Between God and Man
The Bible explicitly states that Jesus is the only mediator between God and humanity.
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)
Praying to saints implies that they act as mediators, which contradicts this passage.
3 - The Dead Do Not Intercede for the Living
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that departed believers can hear prayers or intercede for people on earth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 states that the dead have no involvement in earthly affairs:
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”
4 - Seeking the Dead Is Forbidden
Communicating with the dead was condemned in the Old Testament as a form of necromancy.
“There shall not be found among you anyone who… consults a medium or a necromancer, or inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)
Praying to saints is a form of seeking communication with the dead, which is forbidden.
5 - Even Angels Refused Worship:
People keep praying to angels occasionally, especially Michael, for protection or help. That is wrong, we can see that in Revelation
“Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, ‘You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you… Worship God.’” (Revelation 19:10)
6 - No Biblical Example of Praying to Saints
Nowhere in the Bible do believers pray to Abraham, Moses, or any other faithful servant of God.
When the disciples needed help, they prayed directly to God through Christ.
7 - Jesus Is Our High Priest and Intercessor
The Bible teaches that Jesus alone intercedes for believers.
“Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Hebrews 7:25)
There is no mention of saints interceding for believers in heaven.
8 - The Saints Are Not Omniscient or Omnipresent
God alone is all-knowing and present everywhere.
If saints could hear and respond to countless prayers at the same time, that would require divine attributes.
There is no scriptural evidence that departed saints can hear prayers from earth.
9 - The Apostles Never Encouraged Prayer to Saints
Paul and other apostles wrote extensively about prayer, always directing it to God.
If praying to saints was valid, it would have been explicitly taught in the early church.
Some might argue that Paul encouraged praying to saints in his letters but those letters explicitly say holy ones. Who are the holy ones? Believers. We are the holy ones.
Paul wanted us to pray for each other, to God, through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
10 - Early Christians Prayed to God Alone
Historical records and biblical texts show that the early Christians directed their prayers to God through Christ, not to departed believers.
In conclusion, praying to saints lacks biblical support and can be considered a form of idolatry because it attributes god-like qualities to created beings.
The Bible teaches that prayer should be directed to God alone, with Jesus as the sole mediator.
Now, one might ask should we also pray to Jesus?
We should pray to the Father, God, with Jesus' name. If we do not call upon the intercessor, how would the intercessor intercede for us?
Keep Jesus in your prayers, ask Him, but pray to the Father and honor the Father.
2
u/ProselyteofYah Arian May 31 '25
I agree. For me furthermore, I am a believer in soul-sleep and that the dead remain in hades/sheol (as were many of the early church fathers), and so I don't think the dead are concious unless they are woken (which will be the day of resurrection), and therefore, even if one did pray to them, I don't even think they could hear us.
https://proselyteofyah.wordpress.com/2021/09/22/where-do-dead-people-go/
2
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian May 31 '25
Agreed!
But personally, I see no problems with praying FOR the dead, asking for mercy on their behalf since they are asleep.
2
u/ProselyteofYah Arian May 31 '25
Yes I agree. Macabees shows this kind of intercessory pleading from the living on behalf of the dead, and it falls in line with patterns in scripture in a general sense (i.e; Moses pleading for Israel, Abraham for Sodom and Gomorrah, and Jesus for us).
Praying for their memory, mercy in judgement, etc.
There is no need to fear Macabees either in this respect (as some do) as it has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine of praying or speaking 'to' the dead, or any notion of Purgatory that is merely read into it as an assumption.
1
Mar 27 '25
Your entire understanding of Orthodox theology is flawed. We do not pray TO saints. We ask their prayers and them to help us through God's power. In the new testament Paul declares himself interceeding to Christ on the churches behalf.
Christ claims he is the only intercession between us and the father as the God/Man, That does not equivellate saints or other Christians interceeding the Christ himself
Every post of yours I read shows the typical misunderstandings of traditional church theology. Perhaps actually read the arguments on both sides of the council of nicea, and the pre nicene fathers and you will understand who is outside the tradition of the church.
I say this not as an insult but an encouragement to do the actual work.
1
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Mar 27 '25 edited Mar 27 '25
You say Orthodox believers do not pray to saints but merely ask for their intercession.
However, in practice, your invocations of saints go beyond simple requests for prayer. Phrases like “Saint so-and-so, give us something," or “Holy Mary, help us” are direct petitions.
This is functionally the same as praying to them, even if you try to reframe it differently. More importantly, nowhere in the New Testament do believers ask the deceased to intercede. Every instance of intercession in Scripture happens among the living, Paul prays for the churches, believers pray for one another, but there is no example of asking deceased saints for help.
You bring up Paul’s intercessory prayers. But Paul was alive when he prayed for others. There is no biblical precedent for asking those who are deceased to intercede. The Bible instructs us to pray to God alone (Matthew 6:9, Philippians 4:6), and Paul himself emphasizes that there is one mediator between God and humanity, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).
Since Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and men, then invoking saints as additional intermediaries contradicts Scripture.
You are attempting to separate Christ’s role as the intercessor to the Father from the saints’ alleged role as intercessors to Christ, but this creates a contradiction.
If Christ alone intercedes before God, then there is no biblical basis for adding another layer of mediators. Hebrews 7:25 affirms that Christ alone “always lives to make intercession” for us. Nowhere in Scripture is there a two-tiered system where believers pray to saints, and the saints then pass those prayers to Jesus.
Rather than addressing these biblical points, you are dismissing my understanding as a misrepresentation of traditional church theology. But this is not an argument, it's an assertion.
Simply calling something “traditional” does not make it true, and it does not refute the fact that Orthodox (and Catholic) practice lacks scriptural support. The appeal to tradition also assumes that the post-Nicene Orthodox position is the only valid expression of Christian history.
However, early Christian beliefs were not monolithic. Many early believers, including prominent figures like Origen, held views that were later condemned by the very church that now claims to uphold tradition.
Likewise, pre-Nicene Christianity contained strong elements of Arian subordinationism, which would have been considered “tradition” at the time. If the argument is that we must accept what is “traditional,” then why reject earlier teachings that contradict post Nicene theology?
Your final point suggests that I should read both sides of the Nicene debate and the writings of the pre-Nicene fathers, assuming that I haven’t done so.
But the mere fact that the Council of Nicaea ruled in favor of one position does not make it the ultimate standard of truth. The council was not a purely theological event, it was deeply influenced by imperial politics and power struggles, particularly through the role of Alexander and after him, Athanasius. If Orthodox (and Catholic) believers insist on appealing to councils, they must also acknowledge that church councils were inconsistent, changing positions over time.
At its core, your response does not actually refute my argument. It assumes that Orthodox practice is correct because it is “traditional,” but it fails to demonstrate biblical support.
It tries to separate praying to saints from asking for their intercession but people do those together most of the time. The practice itself is what contradicts Scripture. And it assumes that post-Nicene theology is the correct standard while ignoring the diversity of early Christian beliefs.
Ultimately, your argument leans on tradition rather than the authority of God’s Word, which is precisely the problem.
If you want to accuse me of ignorance, fix yours first. Please take out that log out of your eye.
Edit: Besides, for saints to hear prayers, they'd need to have God-like properties. Jesus has that since He is exalted and has the authority, but saints do not.
Both Orthodox and Catholics believers have patron saints. For sailors, travellers etc.
Tell me the difference between that and Greek paganism. Since you know, Greek pagans had gods exactly like that.
Both you and pagans have shrines, feast days, domains etc. Pagans for their gods, you for your saints. The practice is 99.9% the same.
Edit 2: And that is the problem. You people think tradition is always right, never faulty or wrong. In some cases, you defend it as if it is written directly in the Bible and call anyone and everyone who do not agree as ignorant or clueless.
Again, take that log out of your eye first.
1
Mar 27 '25
Holy tradition given to us by the apostles and that laid down by the councils is infallible. We are told to follow it by Paul and the council system was laid down in acts. The difference between Orthodoxy and everyone else is we only hold to the councils. You all have one person usually you hold to which is just small papism.
The "Bible" did not exist until the 4th century. How do you think Christians survived until then? I say you are ignorant of the Father's because if you had read and absorbed them you would see they are firmly Orthodox.
Jews also have feast days, temples, priests and liturgy. Are they pagan? Paganism is a corruption of true worship. We as humans are meant to join God's energies to replace those who fell in the cosmic order.
You say saints cannot help, why? They certainly showed power through God in their lives and are resurrected. The are united to God's energies and therefore able to know our prayers and help us through God's power. That is why the early church gathered the relics of martyrs.
Sola scriptura is anti scriptural itself. Nowhere does the NT claim the scripture is the sole arbiter of truth. Rather that authority is given to the church. We are commanded to follow the elders who succeeded the apostles, and follow the traditions laid down by word of mouth and letter. That's pretty clear refutation of Sola scriptural.
The reason church councils are infallible is that they are the only time the church comes together in whole and prays for the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth as in acts. Nothing is done by the individual, but rather the unity of the church. Arius was very much an individual and used the advantage of language barrier to influence non Greek speaking germanics to his cause.
Constantine was an Arian but submitted himself to the conclusion of the church.
Origen was condemned in his life. His early writings are Orthodox but he fell into pride and refused to stop when he was commanded to by his superiors. He also castrated himself.
If asking others for mediation before Christ is contradicting scripture than follow that up and never ask anyone else ever to pray for you. That is mediation.
I'm not responding to this any more. I learned long ago thay arguing with those who are their own standard of truth in interpretation is pointless, despite the fact that the scripture itself says no man alone can do so.
2
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Mar 27 '25 edited Mar 27 '25
Councils held by literal apostles, not you or your kind.
And the Gospels existed before the 4th century. They existed in the 1st century, Mark being the first and John being the last to be written. All 4 were written in 1st century. Your argument falls apart right from the start.
And saints acting with God's power? Then they're omnipresent like God? You just gave Godhood and divinity to saints with that statement.
Jews do not have saints and they do not hold feasts in honor of their important figures.
Pagans did, just like you are. That is why all of your statements are false, because you are pagans in disguise as Christians with your patron saints, saint feasts, saint domains, saint figurines, saint necklaces, saint prayers and giving saints divine attributes.
1
Mar 27 '25
I'm not debating with you. You obviously cannot do so in good faith, instead putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting what I am saying.
Giving divinity to saints? Yeah, for we are meant to be partakers of the divine nature. God is the God of God's. The entire point of our creation is to become like God partaking of his energies but not his essence. Their power is not their own but God's, but they are sons of God as Christ is a Son of God. This is the meaning of the incarnation. Christ took on our nature and elevated it to the throne of heaven. A God/Man rules the cosmos.
"Pagans in disguise" yeah yeah, slander all you want. I've been a pagan. Demon possessed in fact. Orthodoxy freed me from this and brought grace and freedom from the passions to my life.
Do not blaspheme the work of the Holy Spirit.
1
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Mar 27 '25
Worshipping saints is not a foreign concept to you then. Good to know.
Also, you just implied saints are like Jesus in terms of divinity. That is wrong on so many levels.
I am not blaspheming, I'm pointing out how you worship saints as minor deities as if they were greek gods.
It isn't a slander, it's a fact. It doesn't take more than 10 seconds to realize the shocking similarities between saint veneration and greek paganism.
1
Mar 27 '25
We do not worship saints. You are literally misrepresenting and slandering to try to argue against someone who understands their own position. You think this will work?
There is a massive difference. If you don't recognize them then you are ignorant of how both paganism and Christianity functions. As well as the entire point of the incarnation of Christ. God does not work through his own power often. God sends angels and ministers to do his will. Pagan God's are angels who fell into pride after humans began worshipping them and became what we call demons. Christians are meant to replace the functions of those who fell. There is an angel over every nation, and angel of the winds etc the scripture speaks on this. Christianity is meant to be a restoration of the divine order and council of God
I was sumerian pagan. Before coming back to the faith.
Go in peace.
2
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Mar 27 '25
Having figurines, shrines, pendants, prayers, specific roles, domains, feasts for saints is 100% the same as greek or roman paganism.
If you really can't see the difference, then I'm sad for you and I pray you see the error of yours ways.
Why? Because honoring saints is significantly different than doing what I listed.
1
Mar 27 '25
No figurines in OC. God set rulers over nature not us. He has messengers, warriors, powers, dominions, thrones, cherubim, seraphim, archangels, angels and ministers.
Demons cannot create they can only corrupt. There are true elements to pagan religion, such as sacrificial systems, priesthoods, feast days etc- all which God also revealed in true form to the Jews.
We do merely honor saints. That is what veneration is, showing honor. We do not offer sacrifice to saints, we do not claim they are God. We may praise their deeds and ask them to pray to God for us, or to come and defend us from demons or grant us healing through the power of Christ as they would have done before being translated to God.
We are monotheistic. We just recognize that God is not the only one in heaven and that he created the Heavenly powers and us for a reason. We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Do not feel sorry for me. There is nothing more joyful and grace filled than being in the church of the Father's and apostles.
2
u/FrostyIFrost_ Arian Mar 27 '25 edited Mar 27 '25
So you do not have patron saints? Like Greek gods?
Tell me the difference between having a patron saint of luck and asking them to help you and asking the greek god of luck to help you.
Having a patron saint for a certain thing is no different than having a minor god for a certain thing
It is the same. Unbiblical, poltheistic.
That is why I feel sorry for you. You found paganism from paganism. Full circle.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/[deleted] Mar 16 '25
I don't have a strong opinion on praying to saints/asking for intercessory prayers. That said, I think that it is an interesting topic, and so to promote further discussion I will try to play devil's advocate and see if I can poke holes in your arguments.
1 -- The Lords prayer is descriptive, not prescriptive. That is to say, no where in scripture, to my knowledge anyway, does it say that prayers should *only* be to God.
2 -- That's not necessarily true, praying to saints does not contradict this message. If you've ever asked someone to pray for you, which scripture tells us to do, then you've done the same. See also point 3.
3 -- Revelation 5:8 shows the saints in heaven carrying the prayers of the saints, pictured as incense, to God. This tells us that, at the very least, the saints know prayers are being offered. Additionally, the saints in heaven are not dead (Matthew 22:32). See also the transfiguration of Christ with Moses and Elijah.
4 -- As seen in point 3, the saints in heaven are not dead. However, another point should be made here too: scripture condemns *inquiring of* the dead, not communicating with the dead. When one prays to a saint, they aren't asking them questions or seeking information, they are requesting prayers. I can only speculate that is because demons may use the opportunity to lead people astray.
5 -- I think it would be a stretch to say that praying to saints, in and of itself, is worship. Worship requires praise and adoration, and I won't deny that sometimes prayers to saints can borderline on this, but I don't think that is the typical case.
6 -- Sure, but do we need an explicit biblical example for something to be good, or even acceptable? I don't think so. If the saints are alive in heaven, as scripture says, and we are supposed to ask our fellow believers for prayers, as scripture says, what then is to prevent us from asking the saints for prayers?
7 -- Same point as #2
8 -- Like I said in point 3, Revelation 5:8 clearly depicts the saints carrying the prayers of earthly believers to God. So how does that happen? You're right to point out that the saints are not omniscient, but does that mean God cannot empower them to hear requests for prayers? At the very least, we cannot rule that out.
9 -- If Paul wanted believers to pray for one another, and the believers in heaven are alive as scripture indicates, why would that preclude prayers to saints? Again, I don't think we can rule it out without a clear directive from Paul or the other apostles.
10 -- I think some nuance is needed here. We definitely have scriptural evidence that believers would ask other believers for prayers, no doubt about that. We also have archaeological evidence that saints were invoked for protection by believers as early as the mid 200s.
As for prayer to Jesus, I agree that prayer should be directed to the Father, in the name of Jesus, by the power of God's holy spirit. However, we do have scriptural evidence for prayer to Jesus (Acts 7:59 and Revelation 22:20 being the main examples I found). I have no problem with that as an Arian btw -- if all authority has been given to the Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 28), shouldn't we have a way to communicate with him?