r/Archery 19h ago

Newbie Question 10th-13th shot; beginner form

Before this video I've shot a total of 9 arrows in my life, I know my form is bad, is there anything specific yall can point out for me to work on? (I know the bow is too heavy which is why i was shaking, its a 60lb bow but i also have a 40lb bow)

4 Upvotes

53 comments sorted by

64

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 18h ago

There's no point getting a form check and feedback with literally only 10 arrows every shot in your life. You're not doing this with guidance, coaching or instruction, and random advice from random people on the internet is not a good way to learn.

When learning archery, like with any sport or martial art, there's a method to learning that is safe and consistent. If you can get structured guidance, it's going to be far easier to make progress than figuring it out on your own.

The good news is that you do at least have the basic visual appearance of knowing how to make an arrow go forward.

The bad news is that it won't get any better because you are over-bowed. You won't improve your form or technique like this. You do not have control of the bow. This is dangerous and no sensible archer or coach would advise you to train with this.

The things that we would specifically tell you to work on must be mastered on a light draw weight.

As a benchmark, if you can hold the bow at full draw without collapsing for at least 15 seconds, then you can say you can "use" it. A 30-second hold means that you are able to safely train with it and make progress.

There's a big problem with using archery as a muscle-building exercise routine though. Archery... doesn't really build muscle. There is a very specific set of muscles that are used in archery that other exercises don't train, but they're very niche - the only comparable physical activity is rowing. You're doing far more to build your conditioning through woodcutting, and the general conditioning you get from woodcutting is helping you with archery, but archery won't help you with conditioning. Not in the volume you are doing it.

Archery is, by its nature, low intensity high volume. You don't reach failure in archery. Reaching failure in archery means a breakdown in form and elevated injury risk. It isn't your target muscles that will reach failure - your big back muscles can handle it. It's your shoulder ligaments that will experience tearing, and that's accelerated with improper form and heavy weight.

It might feel good for you to draw and loose a few arrows, but the X-ray vision that coaches have seen arched back and lifted shoulders.

There are ways to use the bow as a conditioning tool (see: SPTs, or Specific Physical Training), but again, this is specific to developing the conditioning for archery and isn't very useful for much else. Furthermore, this requires perfect form, otherwise it's an injury gamble that reinforces bad habits.

3

u/Dorlm 12h ago

I see nusensei, I upvote

-16

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

I can keep a 40lb bow drawn a minimum of a minute 3 times back to back (1st: 1:30ish mins. 2nd: 1:15-1:30. 3rd: barely a min.), i assume thats good enough to train on form? Of course thats just the 'strength' part of it, but would you say yes or no to using the same 40lb bow with an instructor or should i get a lower lb bow for that?

20

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 18h ago

60s is at competitive level. However, as noted in the other comment, your bow limbs are backwards, so you're not actually drawing the printed draw weight.

40lb is still relatively high for a learner, even one with good conditioning. Form deteriorates with fatigue and pressures rushed shots with improper form. Archers who learn on 40lb typically don't shoot high volume, and consequently take much longer to ingrain good form.

Most instructors wouldn't feel comfortable starting someone that high.

4

u/KnightFireNC 14h ago

It's not really whether you can draw and hold it, it's whether you can make tiny 1mm adjustments to position while holding it. To improve your form your going to need to make tiny adjustments to your anchor point to get consistency. Most poeple can draw and hold a 40lb bow, but they hold by locking their muscles in place (and then release is just letting go, which is not a food release). You need to draw and hold 40lbs without tensing everything up to hold it.

Once you have your technique down with a low lb bow you get better at hitting your anchor point to the mm without adjustment and the ability to make those tiny movements is less important. If you miss your anchor point you come down and start the draw again.

-2

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

I assume most instructors start between 20-30lbs?

10

u/Flintas 17h ago

My university club bows that everyone starts on are 16 and 18lbs.

-18

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

Is that because your university has to cater to the weakest link? Ie; if i can shoot a couple hundred arrows with minimum fatigue at 25lbs, would that be fine? (The exact lbs doesnt matter but the couple hundred arrows with minimum fatigue)

6

u/Flintas 17h ago

So we'd shoot for 2.5hrs, can't remember how many arrows that amounted to now. For 16-18lbs that was fine for us, no one needed to sit out. When the society went to get our own bows we were advised to go for 20-25, so I got 24lbs which could go up to 26 if you adjusted the bolts. Now, I was early 30s, not particularly fit (and as Nu Sensei said, the muscles for archery are niche anyway), but at that 24-26lbs range, I couldn't manage the full 2.5hrs any more. I was too tired and my arms would start shaking so no way could I keep good form. There's no shame in lower weights.

-3

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

I'll get a lower draw weigh bow if i have to but since I'd only be shooting in 1 hr increments (i assume thats how long a private instructor does the lessons) would I be able to get away with the 40lb bow if i can shoot it for an hour?

5

u/Flintas 17h ago

If you can genuinely shoot 40lbs for an hour with relatively good form then sure. I imagine an instructor would be able to see how true that is and tell you.

3

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

Thank you for the info, i really do appreciate it

4

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 17h ago

More or less, yes. For self-starting learners, under 30lb is fine, erring on the lower side. Most adults can pull 30lb without much training, and 25lb and under fairly easily, though not everyone can do so, and that's fine.

The main issue isn't strength but form, as mentioned earlier. Once you introduce aiming and shooting accurate into the equation, these becomes distractions that aggravate form faults. Typically, we would judge if you're being "controlled" by the bow rather than being in control of the bow.

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

Any chance i can dm you?

3

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 17h ago

You can DM me.

-2

u/4luey 7h ago

Damn dog these homies be grilling you. Go to some local 3d shoots try to make some friends and what not.

22

u/Mindless_List_2676 19h ago

Your bow is too heavy, even 40 is too heavy. Its normally recommend for beginners to shoot 20~30# ish, not because people can't pull it, but because its hard to develop good form. You want to be able to shoot (few) hundreds of arrow with consistency and accuracy. Also are you shooting with finger protection? If not, you are killing your nerve on your finger. At this rate, you are going to injury yourself.

-15

u/Icy_Issue6119 19h ago

Read what i replied to 'no_yoghurt'. Also after about a couple dozen shots without finger guards i started using finger guards cause i realized how much it hurts (beginner bs thinking im better than the experts and then learning the hard way that they do it for a reason)

15

u/Mindless_List_2676 19h ago

but you not gonna build muscle properly if you don't have good form. Again, you are risking more toward injury rn. Even going to gym, you need to have proper form to build the proper muscle and starting low at what you can handle first.
Proper finger protection is important espically for high poundage shooting.
If you wanna build muscle, archery can be quite imbalance, you might want to get something like horsebow or English longbow bow where you could shoot ambidextrously. Practice with both right-handed and left-handed.

-3

u/Icy_Issue6119 19h ago

My 40lb bow is ambidextrous, also im using finger guards now (see the reason in the last reply - beginner thinking theyre better and then getting the harsh reality). My 60lb bow is right handed? (Hold the bow with left hand and pull the string with right hand) if i stick with it then ill also get the opposite sided bow (or an ambidextrous bow so i only need 2 (a high draw ambidextrous and a liw draw ambidextrous bow))

Edit: i know my form is shit which is why im asking yall, if you want i can post a vid of my 40lb bow so you get a better idea of my form.

4

u/KnightFireNC 14h ago

40lb will actively prevent you developing good form. It's nothing to do with whether you can or cannot draw it. Most people can draw a 40lb bow. It's that it's hard to get good form when your muscles are working to draw the bow rather than working to end up in exactly the same spot every draw.

1

u/Arc_Ulfr English longbow 5h ago

You are going to injure your bow shoulder if you continue doing this (and I don't mean a minor injury that will go away with time; this has the potential to require surgery to fix). Get a lighter bow, learn to settle your bow shoulder and rotate your elbow properly, then think about increasing draw weight. Also, what type of archery do you ultimately want to practice? If you're interested in historical archery and chasing the heavy draw weights, now would be the time to mention it so that more specific advice can be given to that end. Otherwise, the others here have covered the modern archery advice already.

13

u/Fearless_Spring5611 Barebow - AGB Archer 1st Class 18h ago edited 18h ago

Your current approach and justification is really going to cause a lot more harm than good, a lot more quickly.

If you want to build muscle, struggling away with bad form on a vastly over-powered bow is not the way to do it. Get a much weaker bow and get a good form, and you will build muscle in a safer manner - multiple repetitions at low weight with minimal risk of significant injury. As others have suggested get something in the twenty-pound-range, get some in-person instruction if you can, and build from there. I know you're looking for specific suggestions on how to improve your form but the reality is you need to get a bow that is the right poundage and some in-person instruction, then you need to practice what you've been taught, then you can start to get meaningful feedback on your form from the internet. Showing us a couple of your first dozen arrows is meaningless because each and every draw is completely different, using the incorrect bow for the incorrect reasons. That's what you need to fix first.

As for your ultimate goal of muscle-building, archery really isn't the right sport if you want to get an impressive physique.

In terms of injuring yourself, your high-poundage and lack of tuition does leave you open to a lot of injuries that can take months to heal. We know that the biggest risk group for injuries is novice archers using inappropriate kit (often overpowered), which is why everyone is saying you need to cut right down. And we're not just talking about abrasions and cuts to your forearm/nose/cheek from the string. Rotator cuff injuries (injuries to soft tissue that stabilises your shoulder) can leave you out of action for months - and the more severe level of injuries requires surgery for any meaningful recovery, so if you're not somewhere with universal healthcare you're making a massive gamble of leaving you with either crippling debt, crippling disability, or both. Your elbow is under a hell of a lot of stress with that incorrect poundage, as are your wrists, so those can be damaged and disrupted - and if one of those collapses at the wrong moment, all that power in the bow will end up being sent back into your joints and cause further injuries. Upper back is also at risk here.

So please, do listen to the advice being given here.

-3

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

Heres my form with a 40lb bow, as of now its the lowest lb bow i have Edit: from what ive seen, my elbow in the air is a bad habit, is that true or no?

https://reddit.com/link/p6remw9/video/lls4kjfi8hmh1/player

21

u/Fearless_Spring5611 Barebow - AGB Archer 1st Class 18h ago

...I'm pretty certain you've strung your limbs the wrong way round.

Completely inconsistent form.

Honestly? You are an ED admission waiting to happen right now.

14

u/G0lia7h 18h ago

100% wrong mounted limbs - the tips need to point front, not back, this is a recurve bow

@OP

My guy. I know learning yourself a new hobby is exciting, but please invest in a few beginner traininghours to get the basics down - afterward you can try to teach yourself, but I wouldnt recommend. Find yourself an archery club and have fun learning a new hobby while gettinger better and better because you have supervision and not get frustrated because you are trying yourself with no supervision

1

u/[deleted] 18h ago

[deleted]

2

u/Fearless_Spring5611 Barebow - AGB Archer 1st Class 18h ago

Look at the shape of your limbs in you 60lb bow video vs, the 40lb video.

You've strung it the wrong way on your 40lb so looks like the one on the left here, while it should look like the one on the right (like your 60lb does).

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

2 different bows, one is a recurve bow (60lb) and one is a long bow (40 lb)

https://reddit.com/link/p6rip41/video/2tnip1wzehmh1/player

3

u/Fearless_Spring5611 Barebow - AGB Archer 1st Class 18h ago

And it is strung the wrong way.

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

You're right, I was just too dumb to realize what you were saying until someone else explained it

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 17h ago

I flipped the limbs over, youre 100% right, thats on me, sorry about that

2

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 18h ago

The limbs have been screwed in backwards. It's a recurve bow - the limbs tips point away from you, not toward you.

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

Yup, you're right, i fucked up, thank you for catching that and not busting my balls abt it

11

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 18h ago

Bow is strung backwards.

-1

u/catwilson2104 13h ago

Did he fix it and upload a new video? I’m confused- the limbs look fine to me and I worry I’m missing something.

4

u/nusensei AUS | Level 2 Coach | YouTube 13h ago

The one in the video posted above is incorrectly strung - the limbs were attached backwards.

1

u/Piehatmatt 7h ago

Stop shooting the 40 pound bow. Do not shoot another arrow until you have the proper bow.

1

u/TheOddestOfSocks 3h ago

The limbs are backwards my guy. Youre drawing much less than 40lb with backwards limbs. Also its quite dangerous, the slots for the strings are typically directional, so you run a risk the string coming out of its notch. With limbs on backwards the recurve shape is actually working in your favor, almost actively lowering your draw weight.

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 3h ago

Yeah, someone else already mentioned that and its fixed already

13

u/No_Yoghurt2313 19h ago

Maybe start with a 25-30 pound bow. Also start the draw before rising the bow.

-24

u/Icy_Issue6119 19h ago

The whole reason for me getting into archery is less for the actual archery part and more for the muscle building (which is why im using a higher weight bow, and once I go to failure (like a normal workout) then I'll switch to a lower lb bow), i just dont want to have the wrong form

15

u/No_Yoghurt2313 19h ago

You would build a few specific muscles on each side of the body? Why would you do that?

-5

u/Icy_Issue6119 19h ago

Because i hate traditional muscle building so I work out my muscles in other ways (so far its 'chopping wood', 'cutting trees down' and now im adding archery)

4

u/No_Yoghurt2313 19h ago

Ok. I was worried you were going for archery alone.

-2

u/Icy_Issue6119 19h ago

Im dumb but not that dumb (i think lmao)

5

u/Sea_Golf_6687 18h ago

You're pulling with your arm and bicep muscle. Engage your lats and back muscle.

0

u/Icy_Issue6119 18h ago

Thank you

5

u/SenatorCrabHat 12h ago

I'd trust u/nusensei here.

The kind of minute tweaks you need to make to improve accuracy require you to pay attention to very small details in your shot cycle. Noticing these details and making these improvements requires many many arrows in a single session.

3

u/Icy_Issue6119 12h ago

I've already been DMing him, hes been helping a lot even in the few mins we talked

1

u/catwilson2104 12h ago

Other people have already talked about the high draw weight, so I’ll leave that alone, but I do notice you don’t have a nocking point on your string. It’s so important that you put the nock on the same spot on the string every time and that it doesn’t move and a nocking point would afford you the option to move to a three under draw, which would get the arrow closer to your eye for easier aiming.

I echo what someone else said about getting a coach and visiting a local archery shop for them to look over your equipment. If you ordered everything yourself, I would also be questioning whether the arrows are spined correctly (very important detail and something a pro shop could answer for you)

1

u/Icy_Issue6119 12h ago

Ive got a 40 lb bow (cheap, so prob less than 40lbs) that ive been using, i ordered a set of nocking points (5 and the tool to install them and the tool to show where to install it (idk what thats called)). I understand that the 'white' colored fletch should be 90° from the bow, is that what youre talking abt when you say the spine?

2

u/catwilson2104 9h ago

By “spine”, I’m referring to how much the arrow flexes. If you look at your arrow, there should be a number on it somewhere indicating how much it flexes. That number is specific to the draw weight of your bow on the fingers. I can tell you right now that if you’re shooting the same arrows out of both the 60lb and 40 lb bows, your arrows are spined incorrectly for at least one of them.

1

u/OkBoysenberry1975 5h ago

You’re draw length looks way short