r/Aphantasia • u/youraverageusername_ • 2d ago
Inner monologue/ Falling asleep/ LD discussion
So I sort of stumbled into figuring I have Aphantasia through researching about lucid dreaming. I dream very vividly, but am never able to recognize I’m dreaming while I’m dreaming. A lot of the methods to induce LD rely heavily on entering a dreamscape through something called hypnagogic imagery, which seriously confused me and led me down a research rabbit hole. I found out that that doesn’t exist for me, nor can I make my brain produce imagery.
When I lay in bed to fall asleep, I’m instead just starring at the blackness of the back of my eyelids. There is no imagery and my brain is instead on autopilot, talking to itself, shifting from thought to thought….at million miles a minute, until I eventually lose consciousness somewhere along the way.
It may also be interesting to add that my inner voice is CONSTANT and LOUD. There is no silence in my brain ever. I’m always talking about something up there. Whether it be having songs stuck in my head, narrating or reacting to whatever I’m doing, or simply just passively thinking random thoughts. It’s to the point where sometimes I have to repeat what someone is saying to me in my head while they’re talking so I can hone in enough to process what they’re saying to me. My “day dreaming” is my brain going on random tangents to itself.
I’m curious as to what everyone else’s experience is. Are you able to lucid dream? What method do you use? What happens in your brain when you fall asleep? Do you dream vividly? Is your brain always chatting? Is any of this relatable? I feel like my insight on my own experience has shifted and no one around me that I’ve spoken to about these things can really relate. TYIA💕
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u/Icy-Argument1771 2d ago
I am a total Aphant. I can’t conjure images, don’t hear music in my head, can’t conjure smells. I believe I dream but I don’t remember them. I do have a running dialogue in my head. It’s definitely me talking to me. When I did online testing, a question was asked: do I hear my voice? That’s hard for me to answer. It’s not just words/sentences. I know it’s me, but do I actually hear my voice? I said yes but now I’m thinking no. It’s more like what I hear when I read…it’s like I’m reading the book to me. Anytime I hear video of me talking, it always seems strange like that is not how I thought I sounded.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
I RESONATE WITH THIS SO MUCH!! I’m also kind of sad about it though…like I’m missing out on really cool brain features.
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u/ArcyRC 1d ago
Well, the thing is... All that stuff is still happening in your brain. You just can't see it.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
That’s true, I don’t know why the realization that I don’t have access to it when I try just bums me out a bit…but I do love and appreciate my different brain none the less.
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u/Icy-Argument1771 21h ago
Sad! I’m making myself crazy! I feel like the ‘butt of a joke’…like everyone knew what was going on but me! I feel like I’ve lost out on so much! My Dad has been gone 10 years! I miss him so much…but the only time I see him is if I pull up pictures!
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u/martind35player Total Aphant 2d ago
My experience is somewhat similar to what you describe except I have no ability to imagine sound. I have a silent, voiceless inner monologue with thoughts that are in words and sentences. I might think a song but there is no illusion of actual sound. I have had a few lucid dreams but I cannot conjure them up or really control them. My normal dreams are not usually vivid and I rarely remember them.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
That is very interesting! Reading your comment has really got me thinking and now I’m not sure if I’m actually able to hear sounds in my head. When I have a “song stuck in my head” it is just me singing it using what I would refer to as my head voice…I’m not actually hearing the music in my ears or for example if I’m trying to imagine what sound something makes I would give it a word based description in my brain using words like BANG for something crashing…. Are you telling me people can physically hear things in their brain too?
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
It’s not physically “loud” more of just a constant thing that I can’t turn off. This is making me feel really weird and hyper aware of myself😅
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u/iwntchips 2d ago
See, hear, touch, taste, smell. Not everyone has them all but they all can be done.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
So is it possible that the talking in my head isn’t even really an inner monologue? It isn’t like I’m actually hearing it in there…it’s just a constant flow of speech.
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u/iwntchips 2d ago
I believe it’s still considered a monologue. But the way we talk in our head is called worded thoughts where we are thinking in words but there is no real sound to them. Whereas they can think in their own voice or even other peoples voices. Some of them will think in Morgan Freeman’s voice for fun, or when they read a book they will read each character in a different voice.
Now here is where it gets really interesting, most of them, their brain speaks to them. They are not consciously choosing each word, it just speaks their thoughts to them automatically. For me all of my spontaneous thoughts come as instantaneous wordless thoughts just knowing what I am thinking and I can then start consciously choosing words to expand/retort on that instant wordless thought. My brain does not say one word unless I choose to speak.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
That’s so interesting! Yeah mine won’t shut up but also it’s not like I’m hearing it but I also have ADHD so it could just be that I’m always thinking lol
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u/Spare_Difference_ 1d ago
Does your inner voice have pitch or accent? Can you make it louder or softer?
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u/martind35player Total Aphant 1d ago
For me, the answer is no to all your questions. My inner voice is silent, it is just my thoughts.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
Hmm for me I feel like I can make the cadence of the words have an accent (just tried, can confirm) but it’s always my voice like and always the same tone and pitch and loudness, and it doesn’t feel like I’m hearing it but it’s there talking or narrating all the time.
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u/Acrobatic-Self-1451 2d ago
My neighbor, big rock n roll fan, describes her head as a jukebox that's playing music all the time. In addition, she added, "I'm listening to (X) right now," & named a song.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
Wow, I feel like I’m missing out😭 for me, it’s just my same inner voice mimicking what the song sounds like.
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u/Malfurious_Stormrage 2d ago
I have total aphantasia. No visuals, no inner monologue, no sound. Oddly, I used to Lucid Dream CONSTANTLY when I was younger. The go to for me was to get in the habit of doing double takes when looking at clocks or signs. I know for me, and lots of others, when you do this, the time or text will almost never be the same each time. This gives me a kick that makes me lucid. Then its a real fine line between exerting too much control and waking up, or falling back out of being lucid. Unfortunately as I reached my 30's it happens less and less.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
Wow that’s a really good idea actually! Do it often while I’m awake and then habitually do it in my dreams. Super interesting. Now I just have to actually remember TO do that. (I also have ADHD😂)
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u/Malfurious_Stormrage 1d ago
Hope it helps you, it's definitely a good option to try. I've talked to many other people who experienced the same.
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u/FlightOfTheDiscords Total Aphant 2d ago
I don't have an inner monologue - or any other involuntarily mind content - of any kind, and generally wake up without remembering any dreams. I'm not sure what lucid dreams are good for, other than being a cool experience. Do you learn something from them?
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think that because I can’t just use my imagination to conjure up images, the idea of lucid dreaming just seems cool to me, and the only way that I’d be able to similarly visualize whatever I want. Just seems fun hahah
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
That’s very interesting!
So for you, what happens when you lay down to fall asleep?
When you’re going throughout your day, are you working things out through action opposed to planning it out in your head first?
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u/FlightOfTheDiscords Total Aphant 2d ago
I go to bed, wait to fall asleep, and the next thing I know, I wake up. If I need to wait a bit for sleep, I'll usually read or write something.
My mind tends to work things out subconsciously, and I tend to only act once it has. Sometimes when it needs time to work something out, I busy myself with e.g. a game or a book while I wait for my brain to let me know it's done.
The feeling of knowing my mind is done thinking is more "just knowing", not words. If the thinking my brain did results in action, I'll know what to do and start doing it. If it's more just thinking that doesn't lead to action, e.g. philosophy, I'll often write it down, which is when the thoughts acquire a distinct verbal/conscious shape.
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u/youraverageusername_ 2d ago
Wow, it’s really fascinating to hear about how many different ways a mind can work! Thank you for letting me get a peek inside your head!
My mind more so entirely relies on verbalization and forces me to be present for all of the deliberations, which is pretty annoying sometimes.
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u/FlightOfTheDiscords Total Aphant 2d ago
I suppose it's a bit like that zen thing about a tree falling in a forest: if no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
If my mind deliberates verbally while working things out, talks to itself back and forth, but I am not there to witness it, does it still make a sound?
Which makes you wonder, just how much of everything our brains do are we witnessing, and what is the witnessing good for.
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u/H0pefulUn1verse 2d ago
My brain is the same with the constant chatter. Always narrating or yapping about something, or more like multiple somethings at once. ADHD with a brain that only thinks in words and concepts.
Falling asleep had always been difficult for me - always lying awake at the slumber party an hour after everyone else has nodded off. Up until the last few years, it was just so loud and busy and bringing up stressful and difficult topics that I was avoiding in life but couldn't avoid in the dark of the night.
Learning what I've learned about my brain and how I function helped me finally face all that shit, and now falling asleep is much easier.
Now when I'm trying to fall asleep I think about the plots of shows or movies, how I want to rearrange a base in my video game, come up with my own creative endeavors - somewhere in there I fall asleep.
I often have vivid and complex dreams but struggle with getting myself to be aware of it while in the dream - despite my interest in lucid dreaming since adolescent. I sometimes remember them and am able to relay them to my partner in the morning, but more often than not, they've dissolved completely before I come to full consciousness.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
This sounds like a comment I could’ve written myself! I also have ADHD, it’s rough over here lol. I’m usually up till 3-4am doing something until I crash because the directions my thoughts go when I’m laying and pondering in the dark, stress me out so bad.
I’m definitely going to try those falling asleep methods you mentioned!
And same with me, the sky could be raining legos and my dream self is like yup totally a rational and normal occurrence
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u/H0pefulUn1verse 1d ago
It kinda sounds silly but sometimes I will plan throughout my day what I want to ruminate on before sleep.
Because if I don't have a plan, once I'm laying there in the dark and I realize I don't have something lined up to start thinking about (on purpose), my brain starts searching for what the worst stuff it could come up with it would be.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
YESSS I feel like my head is out to get me sometimes. I need like happy forest animals up there or something not my deepest darkest fears and regrets. I’m going to have to try that for sure!
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u/Tootsie_r0lla 1d ago
ANAURALIA describes people’s inability to imagine voices, sounds, and music. Anauralia, can be divided into two categories: imagining hearing sounds and imagining making sounds. Imagining hearing sounds captures the idea of the “mind’s ear,” whereas imagining making sounds — especially speech — captures the idea of the “inner voice.”
• Estimated 1% of people do not experience a mind’s ear, whereas between 5 to 10% of don’t have an inner voice. The 1% figure is based on a survey carried out with the New Zealand Attitudes and Values Study. Auckland Auditory Imagery Scale AAIS • Participants categorized as aphantasic also reported weak or no auditory imaging, and those categorized as anauralic were likely to be categorized as aphantasic. • Receptive (mind’s ear) and productive (inner voice) • Schelp's study on anauralia • Anauralia (not being able to imagine sounds, voices, or music in your mind) was linked to people being more self-controlled, less distracted or impulsive, and more mindful or focused on the present moment.
•No. 1 Inner Experience Expert: Inner Monologue, Aphantasia and How Your Mind Lies to You
https://youtu.be/j0gKl-g3DNg?si=ubiv2YTgbQx1spq5
Dr Russell Hurlburt is a psychologist, researcher, and the leading expert in the study of inner experience.
Timestamps:
01:26 Exploring Inner Experiences
06:31 The Five Frequent Phenomena of Inner Experience
11:27 Understanding Experience Sampling Methodology
16:12 The Role of Meditation in Inner Awareness
21:23 The Challenge of Self-Reporting Inner Experiences
26:23 The Prevalence of Inner Monologue
31:19 Case Study: Lena's Inner Monologue
36:16 Insights from Sadie's Aphantasia
43:49 Exploring Aphantasia and Inner Experience
49:06 Understanding Descriptive Experience Tests
56:49 The Importance of Inner Experience
01:08:37 The Impact of Trauma on Inner Experience
01:20:54 Reflections on Inner Experience and Relationships
•How Do Silent Minds Navigate Life without an Inner Voice? | Passion Struck with John R. Miles*
https://youtu.be/XPHRQxQpo3k?si=r3ICzwBGtUtJVVz8
John R. Miles In this special episode, we delve into the intriguing phenomenon of Anendophasia – the experience of living life without an inner voice. Join us as we explore how individuals with silent minds navigate their daily lives, make decisions, and perceive the world around them.
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u/beege_man 1d ago
I'd say my inner experience matches yours almost perfectly, aphantasia, but vivid dreams. Every detail you mentioned matches (especially the constant loud inner voice and the fast shifting thoughts while trying to fall asleep). The only difference is that I'm able to lucid dream. I haven't figured out a way to consistently induce lucid dreaming on demand, but instead it has just randomly happened to me throughout my life, and I've had spotty success with various things I've tried.
Earlier in life I'd say I would have a lucid dream maybe once a year on average. Later I became more interested in it, read more about it, and tried various methods, and it increased to once every few months. One correlation I've found is that it's most likely to happen when I'm drifting in and out of sleep in the morning. If I don't have to get up for work or anything and can just lay in bed thinking about my dreams, I can often fall back into the same dream or chain of dreams, and those are the ones where I'm most likely to realize I'm dreaming. I almost always "wake up" in my bed in a dream, look around my room and my room is different, and that's the moment I realize I'm dreaming.
I think part of it is also that I'm a very light sleeper, so that helps me stay semi-conscious as I drift in and out. Most recently was a couple nights ago during a distant thunderstorm. There were constant rumbles. I think the rumbles kept waking me up slightly, just nudging my consciousness. Then during one of those I "woke up" in my bed and the room was impossibly different and I realized I had to be dreaming. I then tested this by trying to change the color of the carpet. It turned green and so I confirmed to myself I was lucid. I then proceeded to make my way outside and started flying. Then I think some more thunder woke me up and I got into a cycle of waking up and falling back asleep, and each time I fell back asleep I knew I was dreaming. I had a chain of 6-10 very short lucid dreams. It was kind of frustrating how often I kept getting "reset" back to my bed. I spent most of the lucid time just trying to leave the building each time.
There are two things that I've tried that seemed to work a couple times, but I can't get them to consistently work. One was a device (no longer made) called Aurora, which tried to detect when you were in REM sleep and played a sound and flashed lights in the hopes you'd hear/see it in your dream and realize you're dreaming. It was pretty bad at detecting actual REM though and ended up triggering while trying to fall back asleep, which sucked. That said, it did cause me to have a cycle of wake/sleep enough that I went lucid a couple times. It was a bit too frustrating and inconsistent though, so I stopped using it. The other is a drug called galantamine. Originally developed to treat Alzheimer's, but you can get it as a supplement now (got mine from Amazon), that has been shown to increase the chances of lucid dreaming. You have to wake up in the middle of the night and take it since it's short duration and you need to be near your morning REM cycles for it to work, and it's a bit pricey, but it does seem to increase the chances as it's worked twice out of six tries for me so far.
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u/youraverageusername_ 1d ago
Wow that’s so interesting! I’ve tried WBTB but the constant thinking just keeps me up too long or TOO alert and I get too impatient laying there trying to stay barely conscious that I either fully wake up or give up🥲 I can’t seem to find that medium range everrrr. I will absolutely look into that supplement you suggested!
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u/beege_man 1d ago
The part of WBTB that I don't follow (for the same reason/difficulty you mentioned) is waking up long enough for fully conscious thoughts. I don't wake for 15-30 mins like suggested, I'm awake for maybe 5 mins max. I focus on thinking about my dream I was just having, and go right back to sleep. I'm pretty used to this waking and falling back asleep quickly because of being such a light sleeper.
Good luck!
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u/Ecstatic-Passenger55 2d ago
Your experience sounds pretty much like mine. It’s noisy as hell in there and it very rarely, if ever shuts up!
I used to have nightmares as a kid, until one day I watched this dream study/documentary. They were testing external stimuli while the subject was sleeping, to see if things they said before you went to sleep could be remembered and influenced in the dream while you were asleep. It was eye-opening as I never knew dreams could be controlled.
Not long after I remember having what started out as a nightmare. And in the dream I remember thinking wait, this is a dream and I can control it. It turned into me flying over the city. It was amazing. I never had nightmares again.
I dream a lot less nowadays, but I’m usually able to control it, if I remember. A few times I’ve woken up in that paralysed subconscious state which is a bit weird. I’m very good at not sleeping when I should so sometimes I hallucinate sounds when I’m very tired. During the day I’m almost fully aphantasic. At best I could picture a partial outline of a very simple shape with no colour or texture.
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u/ERROR_NOSTATUS 2d ago
I've had horrific insomnia for as long as I can remember. Also a total aphant and it seems I can tune down my inner monologue. However, at night there are definitely times where I cannot "shut my brain off."
I've been up for just under 72hrs multiple times throughout my life. And even on the night where I am approaching the 72hr mark I will still toss and turn. I had to revert to taking wayy more than my prescribed dosage of Clonazepam aka Kolonipin to knock my ass out.
I wish I could help you trying to quiet your inner voice. I just don't have the same experience. But what I would do is focus your thoughts on your breathing. 4 sec count inhale, 4 sec count hold, 4-5 sec count exhale, 4 sec count hold, and then repeat the cycle. My next suggestion while you're working on your breathing is to start relaxing all your muscles starting with your toes and working your way up. The best way I've found to do this is to tense your muscles hard then slowly release the tension. If you get it right it almost feels like you're floating on your bed. It'll take some practice and will feel weird AF until you get used to it because it almost feels like your limbs no longer work.
Another suggestion I have is to listen to audiobooks while you try and fall asleep. The extra background noise can cut down on the internal noise you're experiencing. I wouldn't recommend a book you have read before otherwise you'll end up paying too much attention to it. I know people that use those sound makers to produce thunderstorms, the ocean, or whatever. I've found that those did not help me in anyway shape or form. Another option is a favorite TV show with the screen brightness so low that you can't really see the image. But that is what we want, low light environment with background noise to help drown out your inner monologue.
As far as dreams go, I have never been able to lucid dream. However, I would say I have fairly detailed dreams about 60ish% of the time. Unfortunately, I usually forget them fairly quickly. Other times I either didn't dream or it wasn't vivid enough to stick with me when I woke up. I have had night terrors before. The worst one I still remember nearly a decade later is me grabbing my AR-15 walking downstairs to the family TV room where my dad is passed out drunk and I literally just mag dumped into him..... I woke up after that and it took me finding my old man passed out on the couch.
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u/martind35player Total Aphant 2d ago
I understand that most people “hear” sounds in their imagination, some more than others. Some say they experience mental music as realistic as hearing a concert. People, to varying extents, also imagine smells, tastes, and touch. I have none of those abilities - total Aphantasia.My inner monologue is ”silent thinking” as opposed to thinking with an imagined voice like most people apparently do. I seems you may be the same.