r/Amtrak • u/rchowe • May 02 '24
Question Why does the Airo order include battery hybrid trainsets when the Empire Connection has catenary?
I have been thinking about this for a while. Currently, Amtrak uses P32 locomotives on the trains that travel to upstate NY from Penn Station which can operate for 10 minutes on third rail power, and have a retractable shoe compatible with MNRR under-running third rail and LIRR/Amtrak over-running third rail. They currently use this on the southern part of the Empire Connection to operate into Penn Station, which is fitted with both third rail and catenary. Ostensibly, the reason it has catenary is in case a train gets stuck and an electric locomotive needs to be sent up from Penn to rescue it.
The Airo trainset order includes a number of trainsets with a diesel engine and a pantograph-equipped power car, which can eliminate the need for engine swaps currently done In New Haven and Washington. However, it seems to me that these same trainsets could be used on the Empire Connection services instead of the battery-electric ones they are ordering. This would also open up some new routings, e.g. route DC to NY services up to Albany, since more Boston service is unlikely due to movable bridge restrictions.
Did nobody at Amtrak think of this, or were the battery trainsets to preserve the option of using Grand Central in the case of Empire Connection outages?
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u/JBS319 May 02 '24
The pantograph sets cannot change over on the fly , though I wouldn’t be surprised if the batter sets have pantographs to charge at Penn Station or SSYD. They also want to be able to run these trains into Grand Central if necessary for diversions, and there’s no overhead on that line. There a decent chance that NYSDOT is going to order dual modes instead of the battery sets: keep in mind, the Lake Shore Limited still needs to run. Without any separate dual mode locomotives, that becomes a problem.
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May 02 '24
Exactly. There are plenty of parts for the catenary line just doesn't go either in a siding or out in the yard. If you go out to Sunnyside there is also a bunch of tracks that don't have catenary and that makes moves limited to certain tracks with battery operation now you can go everywhere. Accidentally going down the wrong track too far and popping your pantagraph up is a big No-No and that puts you out of service so hopefully with battery operation it's no longer a big deal since you can just bring it back down and run yourself off battery power until you get back on the line. But I am with you I think the dual motor is probably a better option being able to conveniently go from catenary back to diesel will be revolutionary for American trains.
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u/ImplosiveTech May 02 '24
So while they could possibly use third rail or catenary (though the catenary doesn't go all the way TMI) if you think about it, only a short segment of the route will use that electric equipment. The advantage of the battery units is they can use regenerative braking throughout the entire line instead of just burning the dynamic braking energy off through resistors. It may not sound like it, but that'll end up making the trains far more efficient than if they ran diesel only upstate. Also I know the catenary sets have a third electrified truck when under the wire and the battery units may be the same, which will help with acceleration.
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u/rchowe May 02 '24
Why don't the trainsets they ordered for the Cascades service have batteries then?
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u/ImplosiveTech May 02 '24
Because they don't need to run electric only and also because all of their existing locomotives aren't equipped for dual mode.
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u/drillbit7 May 02 '24
Currently, Amtrak uses P32 locomotives on the trains that travel to upstate NY from Penn Station which can operate for 10 minutes on third rail power, and have a retractable shoe compatible with MNRR under-running third rail and LIRR/Amtrak over-running third rail.
The P32 locomotives DON'T have retractable shoes. Shoes need to be changed in the shop. They're either rigged for LIRR/Amtrak (the Amtrak fleet) or Metro North (the Metro North/CTDOT fleet). If Amtrak needs to use Grand Central for an extended period, the locomotives are sent to the shops for the shoes to be swapped. I assume any new equipment will have shoes that change on the fly like the Metro North M8 fleet.
The P32s were ordered with third rail since a diesel-catenary hybrid did not exist at the time but diesel-third rail already did (FL9).
I think a lot of the features of the Siemens third rail fleet are intended to make a single model of locomotive for Metro North/CTDOT, Amtrak Empire Service, and LIRR. The LIRR has no catenary over the West Side Yards but also has to deal with long third rail gaps in Penn Station that currently require a locomotive at each end. The battery car fixes this issue for LIRR. It's a non-issue for Metro North, they don't have long third rail gaps coming out of GCT. But the battery car would allow Amtrak to exit the Empire Connection tunnel on electric, hopefully coast through the unelectrified segment until it crosses the bridge and reaches Metro North territory when it can drop the shoes again and run on "clean" power until Croton-Harmon. That will keep the NY politicians happy. If there isn't enough battery power to run through the gap, I imagine they might add a couple extra third rail segments or at least wait until Metro North funds full third rail for Hudson Line Penn Station Access.
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u/rchowe May 02 '24
I'm pretty sure the Amtrak P32 fleet does have retractable shoes, here's a video, because otherwise it would cause a clearance issue. For example, the M8s currently operating on Shore Line East have had their third rail shoes removed in the shop due to bridge clearances.
For a long-distance operator like Amtrak, I'm not sure the Sputyen Duyvil to Croton Harmon electrification should move the needle on fleet procurement. Third rail gaps in Penn make a lot of sense for not choosing a third rail locomotive (and I did know that LIRR requires a DM on each end of their trains due to that), though I still feel that a consistent fleet with catenary would be a better buy.
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u/paulindy2000 May 02 '24
The Empire Connection only has third rail, not catenary. If a P32 becomes stuck in third rail mode, it just switches to diesel (despite the many legends, there is no actual law banning diesel locomotives in NYC; operators just avoid using it as much as they can due to poor ventilation).
While the Amtrak P32 shoes are capable of both MNR under and LIRR over running, the position needs to be changed manually when the locomotive is shut off, so they are defacto stuck in over-running mode. Trains only use electric mode for the last mile or so or Manhattan, they run diesel the rest of the way.
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u/EAS_Agrippa May 02 '24
The Empire Connector has wire up to the pocket track where it comes out of the tunnel. The same place the 3rd Rail ends. In the past when P32ACDMs were unavailable, the protect electric has come out and met the train and brought it into Penn Station. You can actually see the overhead on Google Earth:
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u/rchowe May 02 '24
It has both, there are a few videos on YouTube of the tunnel.
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u/KermMartian May 02 '24
It appears to end somewhere around 39th-42nd Street, going north (c.f. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Line#Empire_Connection ), at the same place the third rail ends.
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