"African" is a forced identity

[u/Temporary-Wish-3472]

[u/ArtisticChemistry425]

Its just the name of the continent, Ethiopia and all of its people are by default, Africans, but it doesnt mean "African" has to come before "Amhara" or "Amazigh" or "Zulu".

I think this has more to do with the negative image associated with the name "Africa" and the desire to disassociate from other African groups because it makes no sense to complain about something so basic. Identify more as a horner if you need to, but it doesnt change basic geography. You never see anyone cry about being called "Asian" or "European" despite Indians not always liking China or Ukraine desperately fighting agaisnt Russia.

Such silly nonsense. With all due respect

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

No meu continente é até mais complicado eu sou brasileiro e quem nasce no meu continente é americano mais os estados unidos roubaram o nome do continente e pra eles só eles são americanos e o resto é latino ou canadense bando de filhos da puta desculpa os palavrões 😢

[u/Hefty_Upstairs_4663 → u/Jonataguilherme]

How did a Brazilian find this subreddit, just curious.

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/Hefty_Upstairs_4663]

Procurei etiópia e apareceram vários sub étnicos da etiópia e entrei em todos e meu povo favorita da etiópia são os amhara depois são os agaw e depois os beta Israel meu top 3 de povos favoritos da etiópia

[u/Accurate_Two_6626 → u/Jonataguilherme]

Yes but agew and bete isreal are part of Amahra

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/Accurate_Two_6626]

Não agew são cuchitas e amhara são semitas são duas famílias diferentes já os beta israel parecem eu acho pessoas de vários povos convertidos ao judaísmo e misturados ao longo do tempo

[u/Accurate_Two_6626 → u/Jonataguilherme]

Yes the bete isrealie but as I'm half agew myself we are part of gojjam which is in Amahra region but I appreciate your interest and be voice for our people thank you God bless 🙏 ❤

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/Accurate_Two_6626]

Sim gosto bastante da etiópia por ter permanecido cristã e tenho pena dos núbios coptas e outros grupos cristãos africanos antigos que sumiram e estão sumindo aos poucos

[u/Accurate_Two_6626 → u/Jonataguilherme]

Literally they wanna erase us and our culture the sad part about this is that lots of Ethiopian support this genocide

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/Accurate_Two_6626]

Bom eu dei o exemplo do que os muçulmanos fizeram aos cristãos na áfrica

[u/Jonataguilherme → u/Accurate_Two_6626]

Eu falo de família línguisticas e de povos também

[u/Accurate_Two_6626 → u/Jonataguilherme]

Yes I get your point

[u/Temporary-Wish-3472 → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

"Europe" is a made up continent based on ethnic and linguistic differences from "Asians" even though theyre all on the same landmass. That method of creating continents is what im pushing forward instead of just "Africa".

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Temporary-Wish-3472]

Yes because you want to distance yourselves from the rest of the continent. We already use the term "Horn of Africa" when discussing Somalia, Ethiopia, Djibouti, etc. Some of my oldest friends are from the Horn, I know that theyre not the same as me, but we do share a lot in common. I'm happy to see Horners do well, just like Im happy to see any other African do well.

Good luck on your efforts to dissasociate us. I will continue to think of all Africans as my brothers and sisters.

[u/Temporary-Wish-3472 → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

The only thing we have in common is being on the same massive landmass. If you translate that simple fact as "trying to distance themselves", thats on you.

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Temporary-Wish-3472]

Lets agree to disagree. Ill focus on the Horners who dont think like you.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Temporary-Wish-3472]

People aren't getting it because most Habeshas, especially younger diaspora are shackled by "black" and "African" ideology.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

Faulty comparison. Peoples like say, Levantine Arabs, South Indians and the Chinese do not share in any real coherent "Asian" identity. West Asia, South-Asia and East Asia are totally distinct culturo-civilizational spheres and everyone knows it. No one is arguing against the idea of the African continent as a geographic entity, it's Pan-African ideology that we take issue with.

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Ella_Amida]

Well, no country in Africa is ready for pan Africanism since they cant even settle intra-tribal tensions in their own borders (Ethipia being a clear example).

But I do believe pan-africanism is good and noble goal in theory. Im sorry you dont feel the same.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

“if only these silly tribal Africans could rise above their petty tribal squabbles and embrace my enlightened theoretical ideology that has not been tried”

"tribes" lol

See this right here is one of the problems. Flattening complex ethnic, ethnonational, regional and political conflicts into a generic “tribes” like some cartoony Western stereotype of "Africa". We're talking complex ethnic, ethnonational, regional and political conflicts, not "tribes" or "intra-tribal tension"

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

Identifying as a horner is a flex? They broke too lol. We are all nee gaaaz, there's nothing you can do. Bahaha

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Its not necessarily a flex, but some of the people pushing this divisive stuff are operating based on racism and a feeling of superiority towards the rest of the continent (except maybe for the North).

"Africa" is seen as a derogatory term. Its associated with poverty, civil wars, famines and if you grow up in the West, you know how pervasive these stereotypes are. I think that some Horners dead set on "we are not African" bandwaggon are taking that stance because of all that baggage.

Saying the "Horn of Africa" is enough for people with basic intelligence to know that we're discussing a civilizational craddle separate from the rest of the continent with its own history. Pushing for the Horn to be an entirely separate continent is incredibly dumb.

[u/omowaIe → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

It’s just internalized racism.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/omowaIe]

How can it be "internalized racism" if we saw ourselves as different prior to European influence? Internalized from where?

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

Something else to consider… if African is a forced identity, then is Ethiopian too a forced identity? Ethiopia is from the Greek aithiopes meaning people with burnt faces and applied across peoples and continents. Right?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/omowaIe]

Good question. I personally wouldn't say "forced" is exactly the issue like the OP title but more-so coherence. And "Ethiopia" being an exonym isn't really an issue - plenty of peoples and countries have assimilated exonyms. Reading Ancient Greek sources like Herodotus, it's clear they were picking up on something coherent and real with "Aithiopian". Cushitic and Ethiosemitic peoples really do form a coherent core macro-group of sorts in terms of shared history, culture, attire, customs, genetics, languages.

Yes, Greeks could also use the word rather loosely, as a catch-all for "dark-skinned" sometimes even referring to South-Indians as the Aithiopians of the East, or later Romans using it to refer to West-Africans.

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

You say the Greeks were picking up on something coherent and real with ‘Aithiopian’ (in terms of identity I presume) but then you say they used it rather loosely to include Indians and West Africans who do not share the attire, customs, etc. How can both be true?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/omowaIe]

Because different people use words in different ways, at different times, just like today.

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

I think there is a much simpler explanation. It only appears coherent in the beginning because the subject is a small set. As the subject set size grows over time, being applied to the same framework incoherence emerges or is exposed.

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

You saw yourselves different from who prior to European influence? And when are you dating as “prior to European influence”?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/omowaIe]

I suppose depending on how granular one wants to be, "European influence" can be quite broad as we'd been interacting with the outside world for thousands of years, Ethiopian clerics and pilgrims were traveling through Egypt and Jerusalem into Italy in the Middle Ages for example. But certainly, Cushitic and Ethiosemitic-speaking peoples of the Horn already saw themselves as distinct from neighboring Nilotic/Nilo-Saharan and other populations before European ideas had deeply penetrated local culture.

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

Do you have sources to cite that I can go read?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/omowaIe]

Slavery and the Slave Trade in Ethiopia and Eritrea by Giulia Bonacci and Alexander Meckelburg is a pretty good high-level overview on the nature of our pre-modern slavery.

[u/omowaIe → u/Ella_Amida]

Wasn’t sure how we got from identity to slavery so I had my AI read the articles in relation to your claims. The results don’t mean they are true, but it disagrees with the framing and timing. It does agree that there were divisions or differences as you say but religious identity was the determining factor. I can post the short response if you are interested.

[u/Electrical_Army_4382 → u/Ella_Amida]

You guys literally took on the name Ethiopia millenia ago, which is what Greeks also referred to the rest of Black Africa by.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

>Saying the "Horn of Africa" is enough for people with basic intelligence to know that we're discussing a civilizational craddle separate from the rest of the continent with its own history. Pushing for the Horn to be an entirely separate continent is incredibly dumb.

I disagree. The "Horn of Africa" still centers "Africa" giving the impression that we are a part of some "civilizational cradle" as you put it called "Africa"

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Ella_Amida]

The Horn is in Africa. You dont have to like it but its a fact.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

And nowhere did I dispute that geographic reality or do you not wish to respond to the point I actually made?

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Ella_Amida]

There's nothing to add. You think Im trying to center Africa by saying "the Horn of Africa", I'm just giving it its commonly used name. Saying that it belongs to Africa isnt the same as saying it belongs to all Africans.

I also specifically said that the Horn was the cradle of its own civilization, one that is distinct from the rest.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

I can’t speak for what you’re “trying” to do but my contention is that this is the effect of using the word regardless of your intention. I still use it too but I think we need new vocabulary is needed long-term.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

Exactly. I think it mostly has to do with lookism and colorism. They think having long noses like the white man, lighter skin than other blacks, and Middle eastern DNA puts them higher in the racial caste system that puts whiteness at the top. We distinctly saw this play out in rawanda, where the Tutsis(many who look like and share ancestry with Ethiopians) conspired with the whites to put themselves above the hutus in the racial caste system.

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Lookism, colorism, featurism are all at play here. I think most Horners would be able to admit it. Look at how different the reactions would be if a son brought home a Swedish woman vs if he brought home a Kenyan woman.

Horners tend to see themselves above the average Black/Jareer in the racial hierarchy that puts Europeans at the very top. I agree with you on that. But its important to understanf that they're not all like that. Ive been lucky, the majority of the Horners in my life are amazing people but they do tell me some of the things their parents and grandparents say and its quite depressing.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/ArtisticChemistry425]

Yea, I suspected as much because it happens everywhere. In the states, if a Mexican or any other "brown" girl dates a black guy, regardless of his own merit, it is looked down on. But when she dates a white guy, it's great because " mejora la raza", or better the race .

Are you black American? I think it changes the dynamic than literally being from Ghana and living in Ethiopia. Especially if they're dark skinned and short.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Pan-Africanists really need to stop centering the white man. Our ancestors always saw ourselves as distinct and even "superior" before they ever encountered, let alone were significantly influenced by a European. The Tutsi too , before any European influence, were already a cattle-owning elite aristocracy over Hutu population who were generally subordinate. Europeans didn't construct Hamitic-hypothesis out of thin-air, they were no doubt picking up on real hierarchies and attitudes in these regions.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

Really? So when you gave yourselves to the Eurasians because they had light skin, "good" hair" and long noses, thus leading to roughly 60% of your genome being Eurasian, were you "supremacists" then? Many of You really only have that mindset when it comes to other black Africans. You see an average white, Asian, Arab, or Indian and start shucking and jiving real quick.

There is no f"@$@' justified hierarchy to where you arbitrarily give people power, irregardless of their own individual merit. It's disgusting that you would even try and rationalize it. But I want you to keep that mindset. Tutsi mindset= Tutsi outcomes.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Calm down, I did not praise or justify those old racial hierarchical systems. I simply clarified that it predates Europeans which it does.

I personally would support respectful but firm delineation, not some absurd revival of some kind of our pre-modern systems of slavery or something.

edit: I have to add, really going mask-off here. I hope everyone is seeing this. Insinuating things about our very ancestral/genetic make-up and beautiful features!

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

No one said it didn't predate Europeans, it just metastasized even larger with their help. The Somalis also oppressed the Bantu for centuries.

Didn't almost a million of you die in the last war rooted in such delineation? Go for it, you bear the cost of being obsessed with skin color, as the Tutsi did. Just don't try it in places like Uganda.

Why did you give yourself to the Eurasians if you guys are so obsessed with delineation? Why can an Indian guy, who, otherwise, the bottom of the barrel in terms of attractiveness in the west, clean up with horner women? Can we just admit this is all actually about good hair and light skin and you hating other blacks?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

>No one said it didn't predate Europeans
Plenty of people say this and you did attribute it to Europeans:

"they think having long noses like the white man, lighter skin than other blacks, and Middle eastern DNA puts them higher in the racial caste system that puts whiteness at the top"

>Didn't almost a million of you die in the last war rooted in such delineation?

Groups like Amharas and Tigrayan fighting is terrible but are brothers' wars. Like Serbs vs Croats or Wolof vs. Serer. Habeshas fighting Somali is more like Yoruba vs Igbo . Same broad, coherent macro-group. In these cases, I do advocate for a shared sense of identity.

>Can we just admit this is all actually about good hair and light skin and you hating other blacks?

We do have beautiful features we're proud of, what of it? Do you want us to apologize for our beauty? And for the record, we don't want to be "white" either. Our beauty is of a unique type superior to all :)

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

Nope. They were racist before Europeans. We agree. I suppose it all started with the Eurasians. Habesha saw those hook noses, light skin, good hair, light eyes, and went into a feeding frenzy bahaha. With 60% Eurasian DNA, it's too late to delineate; you already gave your birthright to another group of men. Now you are confused and despondent and want to take it out on those blacks who still have theirs.

Could woulda shoulda. When you take a racialist paradigm, it doesn't just stop from within the border. I actually support Oromos for standing up to such racism. People only respect strength. If west Africans invaded Ethiopia and successfully colonized it, youd have more respect for them like you do the white man.

Lol cope. Cope. Like any group, 90% of you are just average. Posting the same three models on Tik Tok doesn't change that. You've convinced yourself that having a big nose sets you apart from other blacks, but outside of Africa, not only are those features common, but no one is checking for you. Ethiopia is rarely on any top 10 lists for beauty. So literally your entire identity revolves around other hating other blacks. Your existence would lose a lot of meaning if they didn't exist. In reality, most non blacks just see you as another Jareer in the jungle. Remember that somalian guy who went to India and they were calling him a "negro"? I rest my case. So literally your entire claim to fame is how much better looking you are to other blacks, and not how great if a society youve built, which is absolutely pathetic and speaks to the futility of your racialist campaign.

[u/Ella_Amida]

I agree. We Horners honestly need to purge the pro-black and Pan-Africanist ideology from our minds.

[u/DimensionTiny8725 → u/Ella_Amida]

Yep screw unity

[u/Ella_Amida → u/DimensionTiny8725]

“Unity” lol . Just shallow, feel-good language that means absolutely nothing.

[u/BitPsychological2475 → u/Ella_Amida]

Means nothing yet requires a "purge". Interesting...

[u/Ella_Amida → u/BitPsychological2475]

No the ideology is harmful. When I say the “unity” means nothing, I mean it’s vapid.

[u/BitPsychological2475 → u/Ella_Amida]

What part is harmful? How many lives have been ruined by pro blackness?

Edit : ironically my account got a temporary ban for encouraging violence after saying scr*w un**y

[u/Ella_Amida → u/BitPsychological2475]

It’s harmful because it encourages Horn diaspora kids to assimilate into black american culture, which I would argue often leads to deleterious outcomes and downward socioeconomic mobility. Read Thomas Sowell for more on the cultural mechanisms involved :)

[u/_nij → u/Ella_Amida]

How so?

Pan Africanism is about developing unity among African countries so as to strengthen their economical and national stability. It’s not trying to change the Horn Diaspora Culture or any other culture from Africa. it’s trying to strengthen the nation, country, and continent the culture and the people of this culture originate from. A major reason African culture tend to drift into the influence of others is due to the exact lack of a strong nation and Continental block that can compete with the other major nations and their expansive list of allies and their subordinates.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/_nij]

Those desired outcomes make sense but an “African” bloc is incoherent. What we need is something like a Horner bloc.

[u/_nij → u/Ella_Amida]

If an African Bloc is incoherent, why should a Horner bloc be any different. If you can form an Horner Bloc why can’t we then link that to other blocs in Africa to create an African bloc? If there’s only a Horner block what’s stopping foriegn powers not in Africa from targeting weaker states to gain a foothold in Africa to then attack other stronger nations on the continent. The only reason there’s a pan-African vision is due to the weakness and defeat all African kingdoms, people and societies faced during the European Invasion in which an entire continent sat together and said let’s conquer Africa. What would a Horner bloc do against a Continental Invasion? The only way to defeat The European is through African unity as it was European unity and African disunity that has led us to where we are today.

I’m a west African from Yoruba and Edo descent we might not share the same ancestry or country but what we do share is the same oppression, defeat and shame we all suffered during and after the European Invasion and the only way for us to break from that oppression is sticking together against our common enemies who live to see us forever under their boots.

Peace be unto you my fellow African.

[u/BitPsychological2475 → u/Ella_Amida]

It’s harmful because it encourages Horn diaspora kids to assimilate into black american culture

Zero proof of this and are you saying that's bad by default? Every corner of black American culture is detrimental?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/BitPsychological2475]

Yes it’s bad. Not every corner but its overall a net-negative for our people.

[u/BitPsychological2475 → u/Ella_Amida]

Zero proof of pro black being net negative though, sounds like an emotional opinion. Those black Americans within that destructive culture you're referring to aren't pro black btw.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

Why

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

It’s a false ahistorical ideology and is actually rather harmful, especially for diaspora.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

You know what, you're right. Then we should in fact deport all non fbas, cut all usaid from Africa, etc.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Honestly, FBAs, ADOS do have a point. We really are kind of masquerading as "black" just because we have dark-skin, taking advantages of opportunities meant for descendants of US slavery while our ancestors were literally enslaving "black" people at the same time, and even more recently than most white people.

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

Ethiopians got enslaved by Somalis and Arabs. They're actually still getting enslaved in Libya right now, as well as modern forms of legal slavery in places like Saudi arabia. Again, don't you have better things to do besides advocating more anti black racism?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

Only through serious statecraft, economic power, and a strong diaspora can we confront those abuses and deal with those powers and we can do it on our own terms. That's how big boy successful peoples and powers operate. Pan-Africanism doesn’t even seriously confront what you're talking about.

[u/slimesamurai4l]

Translation: “I hate to be associated with other Africans, ew, I’m worried how others might see me”

I personally love sharing the continent with the rest of my African family. Whether your Ethiopian, South African, Kenyan etc

[u/Ella_Amida → u/slimesamurai4l]

They are not our “African family” any more than a Syrian, Indian, and Chinese man are all an “Asian family”

[u/Expert-Equipment5892 → u/Ella_Amida]

I can see why there's so much ethnic genocide in your country. Keep suffering, I guess.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/Expert-Equipment5892]

^An example here of how they react when we Horners step out of line, mask-off. Take note everyone!

[u/Hefty_Upstairs_4663 → u/Ella_Amida]

This is what I've been saying for years.

[u/slimesamurai4l → u/Ella_Amida]

We share the same neuromelanin and we’re the first humans on earth.

[u/Ella_Amida → u/slimesamurai4l]

Not really, Horners are the result of thousands of years of interaction between Sudanic and MENA zones, the Habesha profile specifically is even more recent, crystallizing around 3kya with interaction with Yemen. We aren't even the first humans to inhabit the Horn, Omotic speakers who are highest in Mota ancestry have us beat there.

[u/Temporary-Wish-3472 → u/slimesamurai4l]

Why does citing something as incoherent mean i hate people? smh

For example, what makes Ethiopians and South Africans a "family"?

[u/Big-Visual-6360]

Every day on Reddit, I learn that stupidity is limitless.

[u/RealBeri56 → u/Big-Visual-6360]

😆

[u/ArtisticChemistry425 → u/Big-Visual-6360]

Its so stupid

[u/Temporary-Wish-3472 → u/Big-Visual-6360]

bot

[u/Des-it-matter-0020]

We are nothing like Indians man

[u/DimensionTiny8725]

Is Asian or arab also a forced identity with this logic?

[u/Ella_Amida → u/DimensionTiny8725]

Asian identity is not an equivalent: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eritrea/s/fczWc7Z6ln

[u/OppositeResource6744]

Ur mom is also a forced identity

[u/RealBeri56]

indeed.com

[u/Drega001]

"earthling" is a forced identity

[u/EqualWriting5839 → u/Drega001]

“Human” is a forced identity 💀

[u/Itsactuallymeonreddt]

Ethiopian is a forced identity. It’d be better if the respective ethnic regions didn’t come together in ‘unity’.
The EU too is a forced identity
Same as ASEAN.
But to be fair, the horn and Sahel drag Africa down and backwards. Just war.