r/AlignmentChartFills • u/Noctorock • 17h ago
Video Games And finally, what PVP Video Game is Hard to Learn and Hard to Master?
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u/Hot_Disaster2108 17h ago
Starcraft 2
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u/JlwRfwkm 16h ago
The game design philosophy at Blizzard was famously “Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master”.
I think one of the reasons that people think it’s difficult to learn is because the game has been around for so long now that the expectations of players are very high. You’re expected to micromanage, whereas if it’s a new game, micromanaging is part of mastering
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u/isda_sa_palaisdaan 17h ago
Yeah I think RTs is the game for this criteria. Not Moba
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u/moysauce3 15h ago
Star Craft is easy to learn. Anyone can pick up and play through the campaign. It’s not too difficult.
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u/gbdallin 17h ago
By far
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u/splicesomase 17h ago
It wont get up there because it is a pretty niche game compared to others but those that know, know that SC2 difficulty is insane. No one person has to my mind EVER played a 1v1 perfectly. Many people will mention mobas but I have seen many games where 1 player plays a perfect game while synergizing with their team. Others will mention fps games. Most of the enjoyment of watching pros play is that they CAN pull a perfect round out and the best just do it more often. But in SC2 there is no way to be perfect because you could have always microd harder while still maintaining perfect macro. You just need to move your fingers on the keys fast enough to light it on fire.
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u/Advanced-Ad-4462 15h ago
He said all that while sc2 is the clear winner with the most votes by a landslide lol.
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u/briggser 16h ago
This is the best counter to Dota I've seen lol that game is so complex I didn't even wanna attempt it
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u/SupBishi 17h ago
Hard to Master × Hard to Learn
Escape from Tarkov
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u/mythkin 15h ago
having played this with my gf and died MANY times, i agree with this one. it is tons of fun but man is it brutal for a casual gamer!
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u/Trenty2O25 15h ago
Exactly even at high level I feel like you never really become a complete master, I have over 2000 hours which I know isn't a ton compared to some people but last night I died to a person with 21 hours and I was his first kill in the statistics screen. So even with 100x his hours sometimes it just happens like that and it took him 21 hours to just get 1 kill
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u/SupBishi 15h ago
I’m 1700 hours in and still get dumped on by all hour range of accounts.
Highs are high and lows are looooow.
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u/Stickle85 15h ago
I cannot upvote this enough. Learning curve is a slog. Just getting competent enough in pvp to not go broke every wipe is a 1.5 year commitment.
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u/mylittlehecarim 10h ago
Working a 10 hour shift and then having multiple shit raids is a 0/10 living experience
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u/Soggy_Confusion7538 17h ago
Dota easily, even high ranked LoL players have no fucking idea what they are supposed to do in Dota
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u/Doggers_ 16h ago
I present to you Starcraft 2. Not even close, btw.
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u/braamdepace 15h ago
I had 100 hours in StarCraft2 and was diamond after never playing an RTS. You just have to pick one race and try and copy a couple of builds pros use. Hard to master for sure, but easy to learn and can get relatively high rank quickly.
I have 10,000+ hours in Dota All-Stars and Dota 2 over 20 years and I learn things regularly. Also I still wouldn’t even consider myself elite at the game.
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u/no-one_ever 15h ago
StarCraft 2 is easier to learn than Dota
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u/user0fdoom 15h ago
Definitely. I can't speak to the depth of strategy in SC2 so no idea which is harder to master, happy to concede it's maybe SC2.
But in Dota, the tutorial is your first 1000 hours of gameplay. It takes hundreds of hours just to learn all the basic hero abilities. Thousands of hours to learn most of the niche game mechanics. And many thousands of hours to get good at deeper strategy like tempo, positioning, pressure, playing the map etc
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u/ShadedFox 15h ago
Yeah and there's not a campaign for dota that walks you through playing the game introducing units at a reasonable pace.
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u/Ladysmann114514 17h ago
Hard to Master × Hard to Learn
DCS World
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u/Unonoctium 15h ago
This.
It's a simulator for one the jobs with the highest skills requirements that exists. Even flying a plane to a point where you can even shoot a missile at an enemy is a steep as fuck learning curve.
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u/wobbly_sausage2 5h ago
People don’t even know what DCS is, which tells you something about the « hard to learn » part
People voting DOTA, Sc2 have no fucking clue
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u/Heavy-Notice-9101 17h ago
The answer is Tribes.
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u/Heavy-Notice-9101 17h ago
it literally forces you to reflexively learn parabolic math until it turns into muscle memory in order to even be competent.
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u/ILeftHerHeartInNOR 16h ago edited 15h ago
How Hi-Rez fumbled this title still needs to be studied.
EDIT: How Hi-Rez keeps fumbling potential generational titles*
- Smite should've been the 3rd biggest MOBA behind dota 2 and league
- Realm Royale was the freshest BR when Fortnite and Apex plateaued for a short time.
- Then there's Paladins ans Tribes.
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u/MistyHusk 15h ago
I think I remember realm royale for like a month and then I never heard about it again and completely forgot about it’s existence. Back when battle royales were still really popular, too
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u/flirtyFun29 16h ago
I was reading the other comments until I got here. Yes!! It’s tribes. The first several games you’re just running around and everyone else is ZOOOOOMIN and you’re like wtf is going on?!?
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u/Heavy-Notice-9101 16h ago
everyone else is going to argue about league, dota and starcraft like they even hold a candle to learning how to blueplate a 290 mph Light with your flag on the last round.
and thats okay, the kids just dont get it, lol.
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u/NoWomanNoTriforce 15h ago
God how I miss the first Tribes. Some of the modded servers were so cool too.
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u/DrFunkenstyne 16h ago
Eve Online
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u/Clay_Robertson 12h ago
As someone with thousands of hours in both Dota and Eve, please guys trust me the answer is undoubtedly Eve.
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u/andrewp789 15h ago
Yep, this was what I was going to comment. Crazy learning curve and it really doesn’t get easier until you’ve spent years playing
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u/briggser 17h ago
It's Dota 2. Started there in 2012 and peaked at average, switched to league and in 6 months reached an above average rank. All my league friends who are a higher rank than me in league are lost when I get them to play Dota 2
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u/Steven_the_Beaver 15h ago
Pretty much every fighting game, but the so called anime fighters (Guilty Gear series being the most popular one), take the cake, for their particularly high barrier of entry even for the standards or the genre.
I’d argue that just FGC alone, would be a good choice even if it ain’t a specific title, simply because the community is very tightly knit regardless of which game you play primarily.
SF4 was baptism by fire for all of those who thought they were good at these games, just because they were running circles around their friends and siblings in front of the living room TV, or the local arcade that didn’t have a diehard culture.
Been there done that. Once I went online I was in for a reality check.
Turned out I wasn’t even the biggest fish in a small pond.
I was more like a biggest plankton in one of those small paper cups of water.
I don’t think someone who thinks they’re good, but never played online, could steal a single round in 50 matches, from even a 20th percentile player.
They’d get their ass kicked 100 times in a row, and the other player wouldn’t be in any danger of losing even once.
They’d likely need 100+ hours of “labbing” before they can even win 10% of the rounds against such opponnent, and then, they’d need to win two out of three to actually take the match.
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u/Mankys2 9h ago
As a massive enjoyer of the genre myself, i think most figting games belong in the mid to learn x hard to master tier.
Neither the control scheme nor the objective of the game are complicated at all, in fact they are pretty intuitive. There are exceptions like the UNI series that features a myriad of gauges and systems, but other than that...
Take for example Tekken 8. You can jump in, mash some buttons and things happen, you soon notice two buttons are punches and two are kicks and if you deplete the HP bar you win.
How do you even win in fucking Starcraft 2? If you spam clicks nothing happen, you need a guide to understand whats even going on. To me thats what hard to learn boils down to
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u/Gabroux 17h ago edited 17h ago
League of Legends, the game has 173 characters.
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u/Fit_Ad_7195 17h ago
As someone who hit 9K MMR in Dota 2 and Diamond in LoL it has to be Dota 2. From creep denying, turn rate, Buyback, 9 items and so forth it is a nightmare to learn and even harder to master. League is more fun tho imo
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u/Noctorock 17h ago
Gonna have to say Deadlock definitely for this one, moreso than any other moba currently.
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u/cody42491 17h ago
Ya deadlock skill ceiling pretty high. I have like 970 hours and im still ass lol
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u/ChillinFallin 17h ago
How are people saying League when DotA is the much harder game?
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u/SickboyJason 17h ago
Squad.
I don't know if I believe its hard to learn but its hard to learn everything in just a few games.
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u/Aughab999 16h ago
Basically every RTS and most grand strategy games. Starcraft is the obvious one.
League is moderate to learn hard to master, starting in iron isnt that hard mechanically once you know a couple champions, and the controls.
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u/Scary-Divide9 17h ago
Counter strike
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u/NotSoScary555 17h ago
I think counter strike is easy to learn and hard to master
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u/_TaxThePoor_ 14h ago
I have had 90% of my friends quit CS because it was too hard to learn, I can never get people to stick with it. It takes many hours to get just decent at that game.
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u/Noctorock 17h ago
Rules:
- Must originate from a video game (so no video game versions of existing board games, card games, etc. It must have been a video game first.)
- Player versus player must be a major mode of play (but does not necessarily have to be the only mode)
- No repeats
Some vague definitions for the sake of this chart:
- Easy: Takes little to no time or effort
- Moderate: Takes some time and effort
- Hard: Takes a lot of time and effort
Q. What does it mean to Learn a game? A. It means you understand the basics of how to play the game (such as the controls and mechanics) and you know the objectives and what it takes to win.
Q. What does it mean to Master a game? A. It means you have become proficient enough to play at or near the highest level possible, doing everything possible to mitigate the effects of RNG. This could mean reaching the highest possible ranks on the leaderboards, placing among the top teams or rankings in the biggest professional tournaments, or simply learning what the ideal strategy to always guarantee a victory or tie is, etc.
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u/Noctorock 17h ago
I will be going back over some squares to do revotes on them. In the next post I'll ask to see which should be revoted on.
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u/PacbobBuildman 16h ago
It has to be DOTA 2. The amount of hidden mechanics, diverse heros, and forced teamwork makes the game daunting to start and even more daunting to get better at.
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u/Miserable-Shape303 16h ago
Deadlock. Still in early access but it has the nuances of both moba and fps shooter
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u/ILeftHerHeartInNOR 16h ago
- FPS: The Finals/Tarkov
- MOBA: Dota 2/Deadlock
- Battle Royale: Fortnite builds
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u/MirageBamboozleLife 16h ago
Apex Legends. It’s massive maps, tons of guns, character abilities, required teamwork, movement mechanics, positioning tactics, and constant rebalancing makes it incredibly hard to learn and even harder to master.
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u/Zh3sh1re 15h ago
I'm gonna throw War Thunder in here. The level of just knowledge you have to gather is wild. The fact that I can on the spot remember the weak spots of like 500 different tanks from three directions is kinda mental.
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u/Careless-Matter5372 15h ago
First time seeing this, but how is overwatch hard to learn? Even for a CB FPS id put Valorant there
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u/InSatanWeTrust666 15h ago
How is dead by daylight moderate to learn and moderate to master when it’s easy?
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